# The logic behind believing or not believing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226 "2013-06-05T17:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/61 "2013-06-06T17:51:51Z")
**TommyzNR** , why bother to argue for your point of view if you won’t back it up? If you’re not going to argue in good faith, your participation here is pointless and may not last very long. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/62 "2013-06-06T17:57:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what _would_ fall under the category of “those things that can be proven false with a high degree of certainty.”? How about homeopathy as an example? Or magnetic bracelets? If someone defines God as a mysterious being who leaves no evidence of his existence how are you going to disprove it? Can you disprove the basic concept of my religion, Last Thursdayism? How can you prove the universe is not entering it’s second week of existence today? I’m just saying that belief in God is only irrational when you define God in a way that can be disproven. Otherwise, it may be a pointless belief, but not necessarily irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/63 "2013-06-06T18:01:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > How about homeopathy as an example? Or magnetic bracelets? If someone defines God as a mysterious being who leaves no evidence of his existence how are you going to disprove it? Can you disprove the basic concept of my religion, Last Thursdayism? How can you prove the universe is not entering it’s second week of existence today? > > I’m just saying that belief in God is only irrational when you define God in a way that can be disproven. Otherwise, it may be a pointless belief, but not necessarily irrational. So what is a rational definition of “God”? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/64 "2013-06-06T18:21:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **TommyzNR** , why bother to argue for your point of view if you won’t back it up? If you’re not going to argue in good faith, your participation here is pointless and may not last very long. Ummmmmmmm…..well the OP suggests that intelligent logical critical thinkers can’t possibly believe in God. The argument was not if God exists of which I did not take a stand, though you might think I did. I laid out a ground work of where to start. i.e. Man created religion or God created religion and noted that it is intriguing to follow either path. What I have read or not read is irrelevant. There is plenty of evidence to follow on either path and the critical thinker must make decisions on that evidence. The trap was set and I didn’t bite because that is not where I thought the OP wanted the discussion to go. So if you want to side with Mr. 30,000 that there is no evidence to examine that might support that God exists then my efforts here are pointless and I will be glad to forfeit. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/65 "2013-06-06T18:25:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am tired of your bullshit stall tactics. The next time you want to talk about examples that prove your point, why don’t you bring them with you, m’kay? And I am tired of your bullshit tactics. Why can you not acknowledge that there are volumes of books that suggest God might exist? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/66 "2013-06-06T18:29:56Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > So if you want to side with Mr. 30,000 that there is no evidence to examine that might support that God exists then my efforts here are pointless and I will be glad to forfeit. I never said that. I asked you to support your statement about the abundance of unusual events that support the existence of any particular god by giving me the best one you’ve got. YOU made the claim. YOU back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/67 "2013-06-06T18:31:00Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > And I am tired of your bullshit tactics. Why can you not acknowledge that there are volumes of books that suggest God might exist? Once again, which “god” are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/68 "2013-06-06T18:36:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Once again, which “god” are you referring to? Maybe if I put it this way you will understand my point of view. Whatever God this theoretical intelligent logical critical thinker that was referred to in the OP is trying to come to grips with. How do I know what God they are trying to come to grips with? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/69 "2013-06-06T18:48:10Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Maybe if I put it this way you will understand my point of view. > > Whatever God this theoretical intelligent logical critical thinker that was referred to in the OP is trying to come to grips with. How do I know what God they are trying to come to grips with? And how would you know what evidence(if any) would support whatever god the OP is trying to come to grips with? The evidence _you_ keep bringing up-what god does it support the existence of? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/70 "2013-06-06T18:52:19Z")
If you would be so kind, Mr. McCarthy-could you please stop waving your evidence around and let us take a good look at it? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/71 "2013-06-06T18:52:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I never said that. I asked you to support your statement about the abundance of unusual events that support the existence of any particular god by giving me the best one you’ve got. > YOU made the claim. > YOU back it up. Look, you clearly want to nick pick and tear apart any particular title I can come up with. I pick a title you pick it apart and repeat until I give up or you call me ignorant. If you in fact have either chosen not to read or have classified anything referring to God as Looney I can’t help you see what I am trying to convey. You think I am avoiding the question, I truly don’t have a title to consider but have read many books that intrigue me to the possibility God exists. As sure as the sun is in the sky you know there are thousands of books out there to consider. It would surprise me if you do not know that. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/72 "2013-06-06T18:53:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Of course intelligent people can believe in God. But the act itself is very, very stupid. > > Intelligent people do stupid things all the time. Some overeat, some smoke, some suck off strangers through glory holes because their religion doesn’t let them have real relationships. > > Now, ITR has said that he has logical reasons for believing in God before, but when asked for those reasons, he cites some book and tells you to read it. I suggest that if someone can’t relate in fairly simple terms the reasons behind their belief, they didn’t really arrive at it via logic or reason. I see. So if a person reads books, learns from them, and incorporates what’s learned into his or her beliefs, then that person isn’t using logic and reason? But if a person refuses to read books and instead demands that all reasoning be dumbed down to ‘fairly simple terms’, that constitutes logic and reason? Small wonder the two of us rarely agree. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/73 "2013-06-06T18:56:34Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Look, you clearly want to nick pick and tear apart any particular title I can come up with. I pick a title you pick it apart and repeat until I give up or you call me ignorant. > > If you in fact have either chosen not to read or have classified anything referring to God as Looney I can’t help you see what I am trying to convey. You think I am avoiding the question, I truly don’t have a title to consider but have read many books that intrigue me to the possibility God exists. As sure as the sun is in the sky you know there are thousands of books out there to consider. It would surprise me if you do not know that. You’ve got nothing. I know, you know it, and everyone reading this thread knows it. “I _could_ come up with the evidence I claim to have, but you would only…”-the most pathetic of excuses. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/74 "2013-06-06T18:59:16Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I see. So if a person reads books, learns from them, and incorporates what’s learned into his or her beliefs, then that person isn’t using logic and reason? But if a person refuses to read books and instead demands that all reasoning be dumbed down to ‘fairly simple terms’, that constitutes logic and reason? > > Small wonder the two of us rarely agree. Do you understand the difference between incorporating knowledge into a belief already held, and using knowledge to come to the belief in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/75 "2013-06-06T18:59:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you would be so kind, Mr. McCarthy-could you please stop waving your evidence around and let us take a good look at it? I am NOT trying to convince anybody that God exists. I presented no evidence that he exists. I have presented that evidence exists for an intelligent person to consider and make a descision. There is no evidence that clearly defines that God, a God or ten Gods exist. It does not change the fact that intellegent people can come to the conclusion that God must exist in some way shape or form. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/76 "2013-06-06T19:08:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’ve got nothing. > I know, you know it, and everyone reading this thread knows it. > “I _could_ come up with the evidence I claim to have, but you would only…”-the most pathetic of excuses. Well, I said I got nothin already. I am going under the assumption that there are some very basic realities in this world that we all agree on and yes those reading this thread are aware of those realities. Libraries, books, the internet is real etc. So I am not ignorant yet, just pathetic. Yeah, probably, on this forum anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/77 "2013-06-06T19:10:34Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > I am NOT trying to convince anybody that God exists. I presented no evidence that he exists. > > I have presented that evidence exists for an intelligent person to consider and make a descision. > > There is no evidence that clearly defines that God, a God or ten Gods exist. It does not change the fact that intellegent people can come to the conclusion that God must exist in some way shape or form. You made the claim that a lot of evidence suggests the existence of a god, and I asked for JUST. ONE. EXAMPLE. OF. THE. EVIDENCE. THAT. YOU. CLAIM. EXISTS. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/78 "2013-06-06T19:17:13Z")
Let me make this even easier for you, **TommyzNR** : I am saying that there is absolutely no strong evidence _anywhere_ for the existence of any particular god. Got anything to counter that statement besides bluster? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/79 "2013-06-06T19:25:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You made the claim that a lot of evidence suggests the existence of a god, and I asked for JUST. ONE. EXAMPLE. OF. THE. EVIDENCE. THAT. YOU. CLAIM. EXISTS. Now that you are blue in the face GO TO THE LIBRARY. I am done feeding your ego. Let it go already. IT IS NOT RELEVENT! By sending us down this path, can I assume that you clearly think that no intelligent logical critical thinker can possibly believe in God? If so you could have said that a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/80 "2013-06-06T19:26:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let me make this even easier for you, **TommyzNR** : I am saying that there is absolutely no strong evidence _anywhere_ for the existence of any particular god. > Got anything to counter that statement besides bluster? You use the word strong wisely. That is for the individual to descice, is it not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226.md?page=5)