# The logic behind believing or not believing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226 "2013-06-05T17:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/81 "2013-06-06T19:28:01Z")
For example. There is not strong evidence but there are piles to consider. When you look at the piles, doesn’t at least make you consider the possiblity? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/82 "2013-06-06T19:30:07Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Now that you are blue in the face GO TO THE LIBRARY. I am done feeding your ego. Let it go already. IT IS NOT RELEVENT! > > By sending us down this path, can I assume that you clearly think that no intelligent logical critical thinker can possibly believe in God? If so you could have said that a long time ago. I’ve been to the library and found absolutely nothing that changes my mind. What evidence did you find that caused you to make your statement? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/83 "2013-06-06T19:32:51Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > For example. There is not strong evidence but there are piles to consider. When you look at the piles, doesn’t at least make you consider the possiblity? Piles? I haven’t ask for and don’t want your piles-I want your best example. How could I possibly know what _your_ best example is? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/84 "2013-06-06T19:51:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you understand the difference between incorporating knowledge into a belief already held, and using knowledge to come to the belief in the first place? Knowledge and beliefs are the same things: sets of assertions that a person accepts as true. Each of us arrives in the world with no knowledge or beliefs except perhaps that it’s a good idea to suck milk from a nipple. All our other knowledge comes from outside of us. A bit comes from direct observation and experience, but most comes from the intellectual process, which consists mainly of reading and incorporating knowledge from what we read. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/85 "2013-06-06T19:57:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think a critical thinker can believe in god – they just need to avoid applying their critical faculties to that aspect of their lives. Unfortunately this kind of compartmentalization is something many are able to do. > > If the question was: “Would someone thinking rationally, and objectively, who critically checks their own reasoning for logical fallacies, come to the conclusion that god exists?” My answer is no, never. It’s just not a rational conclusion to come to. Making this a requirement by having “faith” and “belief” as the highest command was a stroke of genius for Christianity. It explains a lot about the success of the religion, other religions do not have the same emphasis on faith. It’s not just unfortunate compartmentalisation: it is the single most important aspect of Christianity. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Piles? I haven’t ask for and don’t want your piles Ew. Barf-smiley-face. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/86 "2013-06-06T20:15:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m just saying that belief in God is only irrational when you define God in a way that can be disproven. Otherwise, it may be a pointless belief, but not necessarily irrational. No, it’s quite irrational to design an imaginary entity so that it can’t be disproven, then believe in your own creation. Nor do many people actually believe in such a “god” anyway; the concept exists primarily for discussions like this one. Once the discussion is over, people go right back to talking about and believing in their _disprovable_ gods. > [@TommyzNR](#): > > For example. There is not strong evidence but there are piles to consider. When you look at the piles, doesn’t at least make you consider the possiblity? No. There’s no evidence for any gods, just baseless claims. _Contradictory_ baseless claims. God (and why do you assume the singular anyway?) is blatant nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/87 "2013-06-06T20:29:28Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Oh I don’t know. I recently read Killing Lincoln. I am pretty sure all the eyewitnesses are dead. Maybe it didn’t happen. That is thought provoking. I just read Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter. Maybe it DID happen?:eek: I was actually watching some science show with Morgan Freeman yesterday that covered this very topic. For people who believe in God, it’s not about provable facts and experiments. Human brains are naturally wired to glom onto the idea that there is some intelligence or force out there that’s greater than ours. A trained scientist was even saying that she knows there isn’t anything mystical about tarot cards. They are just images on a piece of paper. But the brain naturally makes connections with the images and sees what it wants to see. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/88 "2013-06-06T23:58:44Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Knowledge and beliefs are the same things: sets of assertions that a person accepts as true. Each of us arrives in the world with no knowledge or beliefs except perhaps that it’s a good idea to suck milk from a nipple. All our other knowledge comes from outside of us. A bit comes from direct observation and experience, but most comes from the intellectual process, which consists mainly of reading and incorporating knowledge from what we read. Some beliefs are more verifiable than others. We know that drinking too much whisky will make you sick. Many of us have seen this first hand. (Many of us have done this.) We don’t have the same degree of verification that believing in Jesus will allow you entry into heaven. The two beliefs are about as different as can be. Knowledge is sometimes defined as “justifiable true belief.” In that sense, knowledge is a subset of belief. The requirements of justifiability and truth are in dispute when it comes to Jesus and heaven. Not so much with respect to whisky. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/89 "2013-06-07T00:07:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what is a rational definition of “God”? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s quite irrational to design an imaginary entity so that it can’t be disproven, then believe in your own creation. Nor do many people actually believe in such a “god” anyway; the concept exists primarily for discussions like this one. Once the discussion is over, people go right back to talking about and believing in their _disprovable_ gods. It’s not irrational to do pointless things. Such definitions are simply ways of avoiding the question, which many people do because they aren’t obsessed with who does or does not believe in God, and when the discussion is over they go on with their lives which may or may not include a belief in God. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/90 "2013-06-07T00:15:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s not irrational to do pointless things. Such definitions are simply ways of avoiding the question, which many people do because they aren’t obsessed with who does or does not believe in God, and when the discussion is over they go on with their lives which may or may not include a belief in God. On the contrary, they are most certainly if not “obsessed” then very interested, otherwise they _wouldn’t bother_ to create and push a definition of “God” that’s designed for use in arguments against skeptics and nowhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/91 "2013-06-07T00:25:27Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I see. So if a person reads books, learns from them, and incorporates what’s learned into his or her beliefs, then that person isn’t using logic and reason? But if a person refuses to read books and instead demands that all reasoning be dumbed down to ‘fairly simple terms’, that constitutes logic and reason? > > Small wonder the two of us rarely agree. No, I’m saying that \*you \*don’t understand why you believe. The fact that you can’t communicate why you have the beliefs is rock solid evidence for that. And while I do like to read, I generally don’t accept homework from people who are so befuddled about their position that they can’t explain it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/92 "2013-06-07T00:33:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > On the contrary, they are most certainly if not “obsessed” then very interested, otherwise they _wouldn’t bother_ to create and push a definition of “God” that’s designed for use in arguments against skeptics and nowhere else. No, sometimes they get tired of the ranting of fundamentalist atheists who can’t seem to think about anything else. I have no reason to believe in God, but I also have no reason to go out of my way to say I am either a theist or atheist either. And I suspect a large percentage of believers aren’t really such, it’s just easier to go about their lives without worrying about declaring their disbelief in something that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/93 "2013-06-07T00:36:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No, sometimes they get tired of the ranting of fundamentalist atheists who can’t seem to think about anything else. I have no reason to believe in God, but I also have no reason to go out of my way to say I am either a theist or atheist either. And I suspect a large percentage of believers aren’t really such, it’s just easier to go about their lives without worrying about declaring their disbelief in something that doesn’t exist. The difference is that atheists aren’t trying to legislate that everyone live by their rules. Religious people certainly are trying to make the US a worse place to live. So arguing against their horseshit is perfectly reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/94 "2013-06-07T00:41:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No, sometimes they get tired of the ranting of fundamentalist atheists who can’t seem to think about anything else. I have no reason to believe in God, but I also have no reason to go out of my way to say I am either a theist or atheist either. And I suspect a large percentage of believers aren’t really such, it’s just easier to go about their lives without worrying about declaring their disbelief in something that doesn’t exist. ``` I won't argue that. It really is easier, sometimes its nice to have that spirit in the sky to sit and talk to in quiet reflexion. Sometimes the truth is not all that important. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/95 "2013-06-07T04:49:57Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The difference is that atheists aren’t trying to legislate that everyone live by their rules. > > Religious people certainly are trying to make the US a worse place to live. So arguing against their horseshit is perfectly reasonable. This is why I think it’s more important to argue against the attempted legislation than against the underlying religious beliefs. It’s easier to demonstrate their bigotry, and it’s less likely to make us look bigoted. Let them believe what they will. That, by itself, won’t hurt us. In a free country, we don’t need to regulate dumb ideas: otherwise, we wouldn’t be a free country. Only when they, themselves, try to make us less free, by attempting to legislate their beliefs, do we really need to take a stand. If God is one, or God is three, or God is three persons with one nature, I don’t give a shit. But if a big beefy guy with a truncheon knocks me down any time I say “One, not Three,” then they’ve gone just a little bit too far. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/96 "2013-06-07T05:12:27Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Let them believe what they will. It is their belief that guides them to do what they do, and to draw an imaginary line between their actions and their beliefs is foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/97 "2013-06-07T05:20:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This is why I think it’s more important to argue against the attempted legislation than against the underlying religious beliefs. It’s easier to demonstrate their bigotry, and it’s less likely to make us look bigoted. > > Let them believe what they will. That, by itself, won’t hurt us. In a free country, we don’t need to regulate dumb ideas: otherwise, we wouldn’t be a free country. Only when they, themselves, try to make us less free, by attempting to legislate their beliefs, do we really need to take a stand. > > If God is one, or God is three, or God is three persons with one nature, I don’t give a shit. But if a big beefy guy with a truncheon knocks me down any time I say “One, not Three,” then they’ve gone just a little bit too far. I don’t think we should legislate against dumb ideas. But we should work to culturally marginalize them. If Christianity had the same stigma as Scientology, I’d think that was grand. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/98 "2013-06-07T06:27:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No, sometimes they get tired of the ranting of fundamentalist atheists who can’t seem to think about anything else. The “fundamentalist atheists” (whatever that means) that exist in their persecution fantasies, then. Christians always think they are persecuted. Catering to their fantasies won’t make them get any less crazy or any more tolerant. > [@TriPolar](#): > > And I suspect a large percentage of believers aren’t really such, it’s just easier to go about their lives without worrying about declaring their disbelief in something that doesn’t exist. To go with the flow no matter who gets hurt in other words. Moral and intellectual cowards. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/99 "2013-06-07T12:27:51Z")
Today god is just a former shadow of himself. You dare ask what defines a god? You question his godlike influence and power, and you want evidence? By our definition a god is beyond our comprehension. Defining godlike properties is just the first step to acquiring them. Time to stop believing in god and start acting like gods. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226/100 "2013-06-07T16:35:14Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have friend who is constantly saying that a logical, intelligent critical thinker could not possibly believe in God. That is my debate question. The question does not relate to the actual existence of a God it is simply about the logic behind believing the way we choose to believe. I see no problem with the actual way people choose to believe but it does bother me some when I sense an animosity between the two belief systems. On one end of the spectrum we might have a primitive native who has never experienced civilization and on the other side we have a scientist who has a sound and credible background. Both of these people believe in a higher power of some kind, even in the broadest sense. > Could these people not be considered intelligent, logical, critical thinkers, both based on what they know and don’t know about the universe. I disagree with your friend completely. Believing in God is different than believing in some religion. The Master Teachers such as Jesus, Siddhartha, Confucius, Epicurus, and many more did not start any religion. The religions were started by their followers. These people taught an intelligent logical approach to living. I have known medical doctors, engineers, and other professional people that do believe in God. My own belief is logical and critical or I would not believe in a Creator. It took my years to understand the simple perfect system of Creation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-believing-or-not-believing/660226.md?page=6)