# The Logic Behind Michigan Liquor Laws. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 12, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530 "2014-03-12T13:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/41 "2014-03-12T17:34:46Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Why does it matter if there is a law preventing the sale of alcohol on Sunday morning ? > Who buys alcohol before lunch ANYWAY ? Hunters, fishermen, campers, any number of people headed outdoors early in the morning. The graveyard shift worker who is getting off work and wants a few beers. In my state, Oregon, sales are closed from 2 am to 7 am every day, not just Sunday. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > Oregon liquor sales is completely socialized. It is illegal to sell a bottle of booze, anytime, any where, by any one except the State Government. If the local store manager closes for the day at 5 every afternoon, you may have to drive 100 miles to the next community to buy a bottle. And the OLCC (Oregon Liquor Control Commission) tightly regulates the licenses so it is not a matter of a competing store opening up to sell booze, if the OLCC thinks one license within 100 miles is enough, then tough shit. Road trip! ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/42 "2014-03-12T17:54:01Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Government control of an industry. While some forms of high-state big-S socialism include such control, this option by some states is not equivalent to “socialism” any more than is setting local speed limits. > > Call it the same very mild calling-BS on an overused, rarely-understood term. We’re talking about exclusive government _ownership_ of an industry. Timber companies can, and frequently do, build their own roads so they can run over-weight, brake dragging log trucks at 100 mph. If the timber company chooses to use the public’s roads, they have to follow the public’s rules. A bar here is immediately closed if they order from Beam Inc. I agree ‘socialism’ is an over-used word. It’s simply the removal of profit motivation. Any meth dealer know to give free samples to the Middle School kids, get them hooked early. Bar owners can get rich making everyone alcoholics. * * * Nevada, 24/7 and you can carry your drink around outside !!! ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/43 "2014-03-12T17:56:21Z")
I dont know about statewide, but in Flint (MI) there are indeed drive-thru liquor stores. Someone said upthread that pilots arent allowed to smoke 24hrs within a flight. I find this odd and must ask why? What is the reasoning behind this? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/44 "2014-03-12T18:01:17Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > We’re talking about exclusive government _ownership_ of an industry. Only if you restrict the term to retail sales of package goods, which is too narrow for me to concur. Gummint doesn’t make it, store it, transport it or sell it across bars; they just have a lock on counter sales. (And does that even extend to resellers like bars and restaurants?) (Yes, they store and transport it the way a retailer would his own goods, but not as an “industry.”) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/45 "2014-03-12T18:04:15Z")
Indiana has weird liquor laws. You can’t buy alcohol anywhere on Sundays, except at a bar/restaurant where 50% of the revenue has to come from food. This always struck me as odd and conducive to drinking and driving. Can’t get shitfaced at home? Drive on over to Big Paul’s Bar And Grille and get hammered there! Also, you cannot buy cold beer anywhere except for liquor stores. All grocery stores sell warm beer. Convenience stores and gas stations don’t sell it at all. But wait, it gets weirder! Liquor stores aren’t allowed to sell soda pop, gum, candy or snacks…because you can get it at the gas station next door! It’s really bizarre. Fortunately I live on the immediate juxtaposition of Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky, and there’s a drive thru five minutes from my Indiana residence in Ohio, so I can buy cold beer there pretty much whenever I want, and so my home state loses tax revenues, as pretty much everyone in my 2,000 home subdivision frequents said drive thru. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/46 "2014-03-12T18:05:00Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Someone said upthread that pilots arent allowed to smoke 24hrs within a flight. I find this odd and must ask why? What is the reasoning behind this? Presumably he meant marijuana. There’s no rule against pilots smoking (as long as they’re not, you know, in the plane.) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/47 "2014-03-12T18:13:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Only if you restrict the term to retail sales of package goods, which is too narrow for me to concur. Gummint doesn’t make it, store it, transport it or sell it across bars; they just have a lock on counter sales. (And does that even extend to resellers like bars and restaurants?) > > (Yes, they store and transport it the way a retailer would his own goods, but not as an “industry.”) Then what would you call this type of market? ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/48 "2014-03-12T18:15:49Z")
Virginia liquor laws sell to individuals and businesses at the same price. In other words I pay the same price for a bottle of booze that a bar owner does. Also (for some reason I don’t fully understand) after the bartender pours the last drop of out of a bottle the label is scratched off, and then the bottle is discarded. Very odd behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/49 "2014-03-12T18:19:03Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > As for the proximity-to-the-pumps thing, maybe that’s like it is with pilots: No smoking for 24 hours before a flight, and no drinking within 100 feet of the plane. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Someone said upthread that pilots arent allowed to smoke 24hrs within a flight. I find this odd and must ask why? What is the reasoning behind this? I think he got smoking and drinking reversed (perhaps for comic effect?). ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/50 "2014-03-12T18:22:00Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Then what would you call this type of market? Well, you can call sidewalk lemonade sales an “industry” if you like, but saying the state “runs the liquor industry” is a considerably different statement from saying it “runs retail liquor sales.” Or, if you like “the retail liquor sales industry.” It’s still not socialism. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/51 "2014-03-12T21:05:07Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > … but saying the state “runs the liquor industry” is a considerably different statement … That’s one of those Strawman arguments, isn’t it. Fighting against sometime I never said. I imagine this is so you don’t have to say anything yourself. You’re right, “socialism” is frequently misunderstood. \ ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/52 "2014-03-12T21:13:58Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > DOES any state have unlimited liquor laws (freely licensed sellers, no hour or day restrictions, minimal location restrictions etc.)? Nevada! Alcohol 24-7. Even Christmas! Now that I live in Indiana, I have to get used to no alcohol from the store on Sunday. And restaurants/bars cannot sell until noon. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/53 "2014-03-12T21:42:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s just a name. We still had _slaves_ [when it \*[“the land of the free”] \*was penned](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner), so I think we can safely say it’s aspirational. Nicely stated! ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/54 "2014-03-12T21:49:29Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Oregon liquor sales is completely socialized. It is illegal to sell a bottle of booze, anytime, any where, by any one except the State Government. > > From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism): "Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy […] > > The State goes to Beam Inc. and buys 1000 cases of Jim Beam whiskey. The State transports these cases to a State owned warehouse. When the State Agent requests two cases for the State owned retail store, these are shipped to them. The State sets the price, which the State Agent charges. It is a crime to buy or sell a bottle of whiskey in any other fashion. > > What would you call this? > > We’re talking about exclusive government _ownership_ of an industry. > > I agree ‘socialism’ is an over-used word. It’s simply the removal of profit motivation. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, you can call sidewalk lemonade sales an “industry” if you like, but saying the state “runs the liquor industry” is a considerably different statement from saying it “runs retail liquor sales.” Or, if you like “the retail liquor sales industry.” > > It’s still not socialism. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > That’s one of those Strawman arguments, isn’t it. Fighting against sometime I never said. I imagine this is so you don’t have to say anything yourself. > > You’re right, “socialism” is frequently misunderstood. \ Could you point out the straw in your above words? You’ve said it’s “socialism,” and that it’s “exclusive government ownership of an industry.” No? (I did make the mistake of substituting “runs” for “owns” - maybe that threw you.) Then you say socialism is overused and misunderstood, and that I’m tossing you a strawman argument because I say that government “ownership” of the liquor retailing industry - which is the precise case in Oregon, New Hampshire, etc. - is not the same as “ownership of the liquor [production, transport, import AND retail] industry.” So is Oregon state control - “ownership” - of the liquor retailing industry “socialism”? Only if you don’t know what the latter word means. Does Oregon “own the liquor industry”? No. It “owns” liquor retailing in the state. Whether you said or implied the former or not, I was making it clear that I see a considerable difference in the two claims. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/55 "2014-03-12T21:50:27Z")
In Indiana you can’t buy carry out alcohol at all on Sunday and you can’t sell cold soda inside a liquor store but you can have all the cold soda vending machines you want right outside the front door. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/56 "2014-03-12T21:50:49Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > Nevada! > Alcohol 24-7. > Even Christmas! I clearly said somewhere\* that Nevada doesn’t count. Besides, if you count in Nevada they throw you out of the casino. - Not necessarily in this thread, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/57 "2014-03-12T21:53:44Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Indiana has weird liquor laws. You can’t buy alcohol anywhere on Sundays, except at a bar/restaurant where 50% of the revenue has to come from food. > > … > > Also, you cannot buy cold beer anywhere except for liquor stores. All grocery stores sell warm beer. Convenience stores and gas stations don’t sell it at all. But wait, it gets weirder! Liquor stores aren’t allowed to sell soda pop, gum, candy or snacks…because you can get it at the gas station next door! > > … I used to live in Indiana. I often think they must be king of the blue laws. Also, the beer barons have a weird, but very tight control over the system and they jealously guard their profits. They will use any excuse to protect their status, and I think blue laws play into that. Now I live in Wisconsin- “a bar on every corner”! ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/58 "2014-03-12T22:05:06Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > In Indiana you can’t buy carry out alcohol at all on Sunday and you can’t sell cold soda inside a liquor store but you can have all the cold soda vending machines you want right outside the front door. We wouldn’t want to inconvenience the hardcore alcoholics with having to wait a couple more minutes to get their mixer for their rum and coke! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/59 "2014-03-12T22:15:58Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I think it is a reasonable attempt to get people to sober up and go home. > > \ > > Seriously, there, Mr. Libertarian? > > Maybe because it’s the state that has to come along and scrape up the mess when your legal substance is abused. Gives them some say, even if it’s not entirely successful. Too many attempts to limit the consumption of legal substances fail spectacularly, in my opinion, and sometimes they end up having unintended consequences that as just as bad as, and sometimes worse than, the problem they were trying to fix. Early in the twentieth century, temperance activists in Australia succeeded in getting legislation passed that severely limited the hours that pubs could stay open. Drinking establishments that had previously closed at 11.00 or 11.30 p.m. were now forced to close at 6.00 p.m. The temperance folks made many of the same arguments that such activists made in places like the United States, arguing that restricting drinking hours would force men to go home to their wives earlier, would limit the amount of drunkenness and domestic violence, and would reduce the likelihood of working-class men drinking their whole paycheck and leaving their families without food. All of this would lead, according to the activists, to a more civilized and moral society. What it actually led to was something that became known as the “six o’clock swill.” Knowing that pubs had to close at 6.00, many Australian workers went straight from work to the pub, and did their best to drink as much as they possibly could before closing time. In an effort to serve as many people as possible in as short a time as possible, some establishments jettisoned all of their tables and chairs, changing pubs from venues of relaxed (if somewhat boisterous) sociability into loud, disgusting dens of speed drinking. Pubs even began, in some cases, to tile their walls for easier cleaning after the stampede was over. The workers still spent money on booze; many of them still went home and beat their wives. The main difference was that they now had all evening to take out their frustrations. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530/60 "2014-03-12T22:16:10Z")
Michigan liquor laws aren’t onerous compared to some states. There are all kinds of crazy state laws. Some instances (excuse me if any are outdated): New York - Supermarkets and drug stores can’t sell wine or liquor. Wine is OK if it is the horrible, low alcohol content stuff. There is a current pending law that the warehouses for liquor have to be located in the state. This probably won’t pass (most are in New Jersey). It’s all a matter of lobbying. Pennsylvania - If you want a six-pack to go you have to buy it from a bar. Minnesota - No alcohol sale in convenience stores that sell gasoline. If you can’t get to a liquor store find a bar that will sell for take out. There are a lot of dry counties in the South. Just cross the county line and bring it back. Some states only sell alcohol from state run liquor stores. If you want real beer you have to go to one of these stores. Otherwise, 3.2 beer is available in grocery stores, convenience stores and drug stores. You get the idea. There are a lot on nonsensical laws regarding the sale of alcohol. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-behind-michigan-liquor-laws/683530.md?page=4)