# The logic of blacking out a football game **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 19, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296 "2010-09-19T16:10:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/21 "2010-09-20T02:59:03Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The stations don’t pay anything other than their usual fees to the networks to carry network programming. Local stations don’t pay fees to the networks. It’s the other way around. As others have pointed out, the NFL doesn’t lose any money from blacking out a game. They lose money when seats go unsold. The economics of this policy are fairly self-evident. While it may piss off TV viewers like the folks who have posted here, blacking out a game doesn’t cost the league a cent, and there’s evidence that the threat of a blackout midweek boosts ticket sales. There is also strong evidence that without a blackout, ticket sales nosedive. That’s why they implemented the policy in the first place. As for folks who paid for NFL Ticket and are still subject to the blackout, I sympathize with you. However, as with the network contracts, DirectTV pays a flat fee to the league, a fee which far exceeds what they bring in through annual subscriptions . It’s a loss leader, designed to give folks a reason to switch from cable or another satellite option. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/22 "2010-09-20T13:48:11Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > There is also strong evidence that without a blackout, ticket sales nosedive. That’s why they implemented the policy in the first place. Cite? The NFL says that ticket revenue decreases, but it hasn’t actually produced any evidence to that effect. At best, all it has it its own inherently biased opinions, as opposed to strong factual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/23 "2010-09-20T14:03:21Z")
The evidence that, when it’s announced that a game might be blacked out, there is usually a rush to buy tickets for the game? Some people don’t think about going to the game because they think it’s sold out. By announcing it’s not, and that there will be a blackout, it’s free advertising (all the stations in the area will mention it), plus people who didn’t think they could get seats now know that they can. So it’s clear (from past history) that the threat of a blackout increases ticket sales. Ticket sales are much more important in the NFL than other sports because there are only 8 home games. Look at it this way: maybe you won’t go to a game if it’s blacked out, but would you go to a game if you can see it on TV? Especially if the weather is bad? (another factor that the NFL has to contend with that other sports don’t). There’s a difference between a team’s fans and its customers. A team needs customers more than it needs fans. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/24 "2010-09-20T14:19:04Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I see now that DirecTV has to abide by blackout rules, so the Sunday Ticket isn’t available. This is outrageous. It’s bad enough they would black out games for people whose tax dollars likely paid for the stadium their team is playing in, but to black them out even after they sprung for Sunday Ticket? What would happen if, for example, the Giants were the “home” team against the Jets and failed to sell out? Would Jets fans not be able to watch the game? Gregg Easterbrook in his TMQ column occasionally mentions how Congress should examine these arrangements (or at least threaten hearings) as a gesture of support for consumer choice. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Yarster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/7c8e57/32.png) [@Yarster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/25 "2010-09-20T15:13:03Z")
I’m really surprised the Sunday Ticket people are screwed too. Hell, I thought that was the whole point of getting Sunday Ticket - a guarantee you got to see ALL the games. Has anyone looked at the effectiveness of the blackout rule in the Internet broadband age? I for one would have gone to a sports bar had one actually existed that had the game, but as others pointed out, I was screwed. Meanwhile. there were plenty of sites streaming an out of the area feed. So I watched the game live on a laptop with a broadband connection to prevent any issues with a jumpy picture. That’s even stupider though, because I didn’t see the local ads I would have been exposed to had they just broadcast the damn game on network TV. So, I still got to watch the game, the game wasn’t sold out, and everyone lost money as a result because some sports bar couldn’t sell me overpriced chicken wings. I suspect most of the rest of the fans either did what I did, or did something else, but would have preferred to watch the game. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/26 "2010-09-20T15:39:25Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > There’s a difference between a team’s fans and its customers. A team needs customers more than it needs fans. Given the amount that television networks pay the NFL to broadcast its games, i don’t think it’s a stretch to call the TV audience “customers.” The networks pay that much money to the NFL because they know that lots of people will watch the games. And the fact that lots of people will watch the games means that the networks can make a shitload of advertising revenue. And advertisers pay that money because they expect to see returns in the form of increased business. And the revenue from that increased business comes from the people who buy the advertisers’ products. And TV viewers are even more clearly customers when they have paid for NFL Sunday Ticket. In that case, they aren’t just paying indirectly, as consumers of advertising; they are paying directly, as subscribers to a network specifically devoted to the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/27 "2010-09-20T16:05:10Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The evidence that, when it’s announced that a game might be blacked out, there is usually a rush to buy tickets for the game? Says who, Chuck? Where’s your evidence that there is a rush to buy tickets in that situation? It seems to me that just as often the game is either (a) blacked out or (b) the local TV station itself buys out the tickets. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Some people don’t think about going to the game because they think it’s sold out. By announcing it’s not, and that there will be a blackout, it’s free advertising (all the stations in the area will mention it), plus people who didn’t think they could get seats now know that they can. Your logic does not resemble our earth logic. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > So it’s clear (from past history) that the threat of a blackout increases ticket sales. Ticket sales are much more important in the NFL than other sports because there are only 8 home games. Announcing “it is clear” doesn’t make it so. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Look at it this way: maybe you won’t go to a game if it’s blacked out, but would you go to a game if you can see it on TV? Especially if the weather is bad? (another factor that the NFL has to contend with that other sports don’t). If that statement was true, then once a game was sold out, if there was bad weather then everyone would always stay home. And yet, such games often still have big crowds, so it must not be true. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > There’s a difference between a team’s fans and its customers. A team needs customers more than it needs fans. IMHO this statement is wrong. Its fans are the same as its customers. Please define the difference that you see. ---
**Author:** ![BobArrgh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobarrgh/32/2881_2.png) [@BobArrgh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobArrgh)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/28 "2010-09-20T16:18:38Z")
I used to live in San Diego back in the early 1980s. Back then, the Raiders were in Los Angeles and played in the Coliseum, but, due to its size, were rarely able to sell out the stadium. No problem, most of the time, except when the Chargers went to Los Angeles to play the Raiders. For some reason, the blackout rules extended even to San Diego. I believe it was something to do with the size of the market in LA, the power of their transmitters, the power Al Davis held over the NFL, or some combination of the above. I distinctly remember one season when the Raiders came to SD and the game was blacked out in SD, but shown in LA. I ended up going to my brother’s house in LA to watch the game. Then, the next time the teams played, the Chargers were in LA, but the game was blacked out both in LA and SD. Sorry, but I don’t have any cites, but I was there, man, and I know it happened. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/29 "2010-09-20T18:00:29Z")
I really didn’t care much about football (then or now) but IIRC the blackout rule was brought about from arm-twisting by Richard Nixon. Hard to believe that the sports temas did not see the logic of televising home games, especially when the stands were close to sold out, but many did not. The “sell-out” requirement was the best compromise. Not that I care about CFL either, but at this point apparently the few times I’ve thought about watching a CFL game they are on pay channels, so why bother?I suppose the sports fanatics are going to subscribe to TSN anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/30 "2010-09-20T18:55:02Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I guess there must be quite a few bars in San Diego that don’t carry Sunday Ticket, then, because there were a few bar owners quoted in the local news as saying that the blackout would cost them thousands of dollars in revenue today. It seems to me that it would make sense for these bar owners to pool their resources and buy up the unsold tickets. ---
**Author:** ![jacobsta811](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jacobsta811/32/2893_2.png) [@jacobsta811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobsta811)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/31 "2010-09-20T19:24:25Z")
Were I a bar owner with NFL sunday ticket I would just go paperless billing and tell DirectTV that I lived in Boise or something. AFAIK the blackout is accomplished locally by your receiver so if DirectTV thinks you don’t live in the Blackout area, then you won’t get blacked out… ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/32 "2010-09-20T19:58:12Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > It seems to me that it would make sense for these bar owners to pool their resources and buy up the unsold tickets. Really? Conservatively, we’re talking about 5,000 tickets at over $80 a ticket. That’s $400,000. Great idea. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Yarster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/7c8e57/32.png) [@Yarster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/33 "2010-09-20T19:59:15Z")
jacobsta811, Would that actually work? I assume that would violate some license agreement, but I always wonder who really enforces that crap. I wonder if a bar could do that and then claim “some kind of mix-up” that allowed them to show the game when no one else could. That bar would clean up big time in a black out situation. I wonder even if a bar did stream it the way I did, then connected it to a T.V., how would anyone know? It’s one thing if you are serving alcohol to minors, but if you are just broadcasting a blacked out game, who would come to nail you? The FCC? Could they use your violation as an excuse to pull your liquor license? And if it was just a fine, would the fine be far less than you would make up with all the extra food and liquor sales from all the extra patronage you’d get that day? Lance Turbo, I don’t know how you could possibly make an equitable deal among the bars. Every bar would hold out and hope the others would pay to make it happen so they didn’t have to lose money. If I owned a bar, I wouldn’t pay a cent. Besides, what about all the people like me who would still watch it at home no matter how much of a sacrifice the bars made? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/34 "2010-09-20T22:01:03Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I really didn’t care much about football (then or now) but IIRC the blackout rule was brought about from arm-twisting by Richard Nixon. Hard to believe that the sports temas did not see the logic of televising home games, especially when the stands were close to sold out, but many did not. The “sell-out” requirement was the best compromise. > > Not that I care about CFL either, but at this point apparently the few times I’ve thought about watching a CFL game they are on pay channels, so why bother?I suppose the sports fanatics are going to subscribe to TSN anyway. It happened in the Nixon administration but it was more because of Congressman Torbert McDonald (D-Mass). I think football fanatic Nixon went along with it although his supporters complained that Congress could rush through a law on sports tv blackouts but continue to “wallow in Watergate”. Of course Nixon did as much stalling his role in Watergate as Obama does with his birth certificate and college transcripts. > **[Torbert Macdonald](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torbert_Macdonald)** > > Torbert Hart Macdonald (June 6, 1917 – May 21, 1976) was an American Democratic politician from Massachusetts. He represented the northern suburbs of Boston, including his home town of Malden, in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1955 until his death in 1976. Macdonald was a close political and personal ally of President John F. Kennedy, his former roommate at Harvard College. > Macdonald was born to Harriet (Hart) and John MacDonald in Everett, Massachusetts, in 1917 and grew up in Malden.... At the time their were a lot of sportswriters/NFL shills who predicted disaster and pointed out some NFL teams in the 1950s tried this and saw home attendance decrease significantly. There is a theory that the public will not buy what it can get for free, balancing with “you need some tv exposure to gain fans”. After the law was passed, their were a number of sports writers pointing out the “increasing numbers of no shows and what this would do to parking and concessions revenues”. Seldom mentioned was the NFL only started counting no shows in 1972. One sportswriter, MeL Durslag of Los Angeles, proposed every no show fan should pay a fine to an NFL team if they didn’t show up to a game they bought a ticket for. Yeah Mel, your kid falls down the stairs on Sunday morning, you take them to the hospital and you should pay the NFL money. No wonder newspapers have lost readers over the years. Perhaps someone from Indianapolis can correct me but the Indy 500 still isn’t broadcast live locally (although it was once in the late 1940s). Televising that live nationwide only happened in the late 1980s. In New York the 1970 Game 7 of Knicks vs Lakers “Willis Reed game” was not shown live..it was on a tape delay at midnight. The Knicks won’t be in the finals as long as Dolan owns the team but that policy has changed. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/35 "2010-09-20T22:27:03Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Not that I care about CFL either, but at this point apparently the few times I’ve thought about watching a CFL game they are on pay channels, so why bother?I suppose the sports fanatics are going to subscribe to TSN anyway. TSN blacks out football games. > **[Blackout (broadcasting) | CFL](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackout_(broadcasting)#CFL)** > > The Canadian Football League's constitution does provide the option for teams to black out games in their home markets in order to encourage attendance; at one point, the CFL required games to be blacked out within a radius of 120 kilometres (75 miles) around the closest over-the-air signal carrying the game, or 56 kilometres (35 miles) of the stadium for cable broadcasts (and, for the Saskatchewan Roughriders, the entirety of the province). > The policy received significant criticism in 2002 when... ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/36 "2010-09-21T14:13:59Z")
As a Charger fan in Virginia who decided to spring for NFL Sunday Ticket this year, please allow me to confirm that the blackout is indeed nationwide. [Non-GQ] Allow me also to point out that of the four DirecTV representatives I asked whether this was the case, zero of them provided me with this information. This would include the salesperson, the service rep I called to confirm what the salesperson told me, the service rep I called as soon as I learned that the game wasn’t sold out, and the “specialist” to whom I was transferred _while watching the gray blank screen on the channel that was supposed to be carrying the game_. Each of these fine individuals told me that the blackout was local-market only. (The last guy did perform an epic act of cognitive dissonance when apprised of the situation…from “no, the blackout won’t affect you” to “yep, the blackout is nationwide” with nary a moment’s hesitation.) Not that I’m bitter or anything. That shoeprint on my living room wall was always there. [/NGQ] ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/37 "2010-09-21T15:52:00Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Perhaps someone from Indianapolis can correct me but the Indy 500 still isn’t broadcast live locally (although it was once in the late 1940s). Still true, and IMO it’s an incredibly parochial position to take. Although this is the same organization that still wheels out Jim Nabors to sing “On the Banks of the Wabash” and hands the winner a bottle of milk, so “parochial” is in their DNA… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/38 "2010-09-21T16:44:39Z")
My understanding is that watching blackout games is like watching movies before their DVD release - there are ways to do it but they’re illegal. So bars that are showing blackout games are not going to advertise the fact. They’ll just expect their regulars to know by word of mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/39 "2010-09-21T16:52:44Z")
> [@BobArrgh](#): > > I used to live in San Diego back in the early 1980s. Back then, the Raiders were in Los Angeles and played in the Coliseum, but, due to its size, were rarely able to sell out the stadium. No problem, most of the time, except when the Chargers went to Los Angeles to play the Raiders. > > For some reason, the blackout rules extended even to San Diego. I believe it was something to do with the size of the market in LA, the power of their transmitters, the power Al Davis held over the NFL, or some combination of the above. > > I distinctly remember one season when the Raiders came to SD and the game was blacked out in SD, but shown in LA. I ended up going to my brother’s house in LA to watch the game. Then, the next time the teams played, the Chargers were in LA, but the game was blacked out both in LA and SD. > > Sorry, but I don’t have any cites, but I was there, man, and I know it happened. 😃 There’s a mileage rule involved. A blackout game cannot be broadcast within so many miles of the stadium. However, there are probably situations where this becomes complicated. Suppose a game’s blacked out in San Diego but Los Angeles is outside of the blackout range. What do you do if you have a transmitter that’s between the two cities? You can’t just point it north. If you broadcast to Los Angeles you’re also broadcasting to San Diego. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296/40 "2010-09-21T17:36:38Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > > [@mhendo](#): > > > > I guess there must be quite a few bars in San Diego that don’t carry Sunday Ticket, then, because there were a few bar owners quoted in the local news as saying that the blackout would cost them thousands of dollars in revenue today. > > It seems to me that it would make sense for these bar owners to pool their resources and buy up the unsold tickets. As **mhendo** notes, it would be _really_ expensive, and then what would be the point? By helping the game sell out so people _don’t_ have to come to your bar to watch it? People are going to go there to watch NFL games because they like to watch them there rather than at home even if it isn’t blacked out. There’s no way what you propose would make any economic sense whatsoever. It would be wasted money without a concurrent increase in customers. And like others have mentioned, online streams are easy to find and watch them that way, and no, they aren’t subject to blackout at all. They _are_ illegal and sometimes get shut down without warning, but there’s always another one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-logic-of-blacking-out-a-football-game/554296.md?page=3)