The logistics of having a kid and a career

[msmith537]

@TokyoPlayer

I disagree completely with this. There are countless choices of careers and jobs, not all of which require 70-hour workweeks to make oodles of money. I turned down a better paid job which would have taken me away from spending time with my daughter during the week days. I’ve got a successful career but we, as a family, are making financial sacrifices to spend more time together.

I guess the way I look at it is that I have never made so much money at any particular job that I could afford to turn down making more money. And I don’t even have kids and I make a pretty decent salary. Clearly people do get by making a lot less than I make. However a lot of them also constantly worry about car and mortgage payments, how they are going to pay for the kids college and so on.

Snickers seems to get what I’m saying. Is there such a saying as a “career man”? Do we say “he wants to have it all - father, career, etc”? No. We just say “that dude has a job.”

[Nava]

@Snickers

I don’t dismiss what **mrsmith **has said completely out of hand - he’s got some excellent points there, and I’m saying that as a woman. Yes, things are way different than they used to be, and yes, women can be as dedicated to their jobs as men, but there’s a lot there in the male psyche that, IMO, women don’t understand.

…I think there’s a little bit of truth in the idea that women see careers as something else to take on, something else to devote time to, or even something else that can be dialed back as needed.

Insert a bunch of “somes” there, willya? “Some” women see careers as an extra; others feel like they’re dying inside at the idea of not having that career for which we worked hard for years. “Some” men idea of fair work division is “tossing the crashed cold ones’ cans into the bin;” others are a tad more egalitarian; others have discovered that they love being SAHD.

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus except when not.

[Dangerosa]

@TokyoPlayer

Repeated for truth, except it depends on what a career entails. If the field is steady, flexible and doesn’t require 9 billion hours a week, then it’s possible for each to have careers. My attorney comes into the office at ten and leaves by six, and is still known as one of the best in her specialty. Certainly she could have done more, but she likes the time with her child.

I probably should have capitalized “Career.”

If both of you want an msmith sort of Career, you shouldn’t have kids. If one of you wants an msmith sort of Career, kids are doable. If neither of you want an msmith sort of career, you might not be able to take a lot of vacations, your kids might end up with loans for school, they might need to share a bedroom, you might not eat out much, and you might hobble along on a car that has seen better days - but that’s the way most American families that don’t have Careers (and most people don’t) live.

If you have two “small c,” the daycare years might be tough, but you’ll get through them. With only one “small c” income and a stay at home parent once the kids get into elementary school, that tough lasts longer. But people do it.

[Cat_Fight]

@msmith537

Snickers seems to get what I’m saying. Is there such a saying as a “career man”? Do we say “he wants to have it all - father, career, etc”? No. We just say “that dude has a job.”

I wonder – has anyone ever asked a man how he juggles (or intends to juggle) family and career? I’m sure it’s happened at some point, but from interviews with politicians to movie stars, it’s a standard question for women but not for men, even if we’re seeing (or just encouraging) men to take a more active role in their children’s lives.

The idea that women see their careers as a hobby that can be dropped when they get knocked up hurts women everywhere. As Nava says, it’s true for some, not for others. And it’ll change if we fight social stigma against stay at home dads and lobby for parental and paternity leave (I know, I know – it’ll come right after maternity leave is a given i.e. never – I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. For a country so hung up on ‘saving the babies,’ the US sure has a funny way of showing it).

aruvqan, you may be thinking of Sweden (where men get 16 months partially-paid leave, shared with the mother). Or Canada. Or one of the other countries on this list, though many of them only give the father a few days off.

[Shirley_Ujest]

All I am going to say to this subject matter, and it is very, very important is:
When this event happens you are going to let us Dopers Name your Baby, right?!!!111!!

Cause you’re like cyber-family or something!

[StaudtCJ]

@RickJay

How fortunate I did not “dismiss” anything.

I’m sure our OP knows there are medical risks involved in pregnancy; her questrions seemed to be concerning how pregnancy would normally affect one’s ability to work. Obviously the abnormal can’t be predicted. You don’t even have to get pregnant for an unexpected medical emergecy to derail your job.

I’m sorry, RickJay. You are correct that you didn’t dismiss real problems, just perceived issues. Mea Culpa, and you have my apologies.

[Spice_Weasel]

Hi, I’d just like to thank everyone for their thoughtful input. fessie I found your post about your children particularly lovely.

msmith I certainly appreciate where you’re coming from, but I do want to make it clear that I do not, in any way, perceive my career as ‘‘just a hobby.’’ I was not shy about announcing, as a fourth grader, that I was going to earn my Ph.D. in clinical psychology. A huge part of my identity and self-efficacy has always been academic and career-oriented. That was my biggest strength and I’ve been building on it all my life.

I have put an incredible amount of work into achieving what success I have, and I don’t take a decision to drop $100k on a master’s degree all that lightly. If my career were a hobby I suppose I could have been happier with a lower ranked program that was willing to smother me with financial aid. If my career were just a hobby I don’t suppose I’d bother sinking money into a profession that is undervalued and underpaid. In addition to having a burning passion for my field, I feel a social obligation to do the best I can with what I have. It sounds ridiculously superstitious, but I’ve had so many amazing opportunities fall into my lap that I feel like this path was cut out for me ahead of time, and all I have to do is walk it.

But I was also the little girl who was told she could have kids if she wanted to, and I planned on it. I never fantasized about having children, though I did first feel led to adopt when I was 9 years old and never wavered. I didn’t put a whole lot of time into this feeling: ‘‘I’m going to adopt someday. Now, as for my education…’’ I took it for granted that it could be done. Now that I am reaching the stage of life where people tend to have kids, and a place where I very much want them, I am finding that there is more conflict between these goals then I ever anticipated. This is especially true because there’s at least a 50% chance I’m going for a doctorate or Ph.D. some day.

One thing I did decide after reviewing this thread is that I don’t really want to be pregnant or give birth. It feels wrong for me. I will if necessary, but I honestly think I’d rather wait until I’m 35 and financially stable to adopt than give birth in two years and save a few bucks. (Adoption is way more expensive than giving birth for our particular financial situation.)

I don’t know what it’s like to be a man and never even be provided that choice. I wish that more men had the freedom my husband did when he worked for University of Michigan–he was allotted X number of Family Care days, paid, which allowed him to take time off to nurse me back to health when I had my wisdom teeth removed. I don’t know if his future employer will be so enlightened. Even with these opportunities he has often expressed his longing to be a more significant part of our kid’s life, and his fear that he won’t have that option.

For me, I was raised my whole life being told I wouldn’t have to make a choice, and I am finding, at least for the time being, that’s not the case. There are serious choices involved here, with far-reaching and in some cases permanent consequences.

Which is my purpose for starting this thread. I wanted to examine the stage of life I am at more critically to assess whether or not this is the time for children. This is not a decision I feel I am ready to make at this time. I started my program today, and even the first day of class has had such a profound impact on me I realize I don’t even know who I’m going to be when I’m through with all of this. I feel like I’ve been bashed in the skull with an obvious brick. All I can think about right now is what I can do with this amazing educational opportunity and where it will lead me.

[Dangerosa]

I’d start doing research on the adoption path now. We did it almost eleven years ago. Adoption isn’t a slam dunk. We almost failed our homestudy on multiple counts - my mental health history, my husband’s atheism (this was the period of time we became Unitarians), a refusal to say I’d NEVER spank. We did pass, however. Also, doors close in adoption, much like they do having bio kids - and they close with age. Adoption also changes rapidly - what was true when we adopted is not true for friends going through the process now. So don’t wait until you are 35 because that’s when you can afford it - and then find out that the options you believed were there, aren’t.

Don’t close the door on bio kids until you’ve done the adoption research.

[NinetyWt]

@msmith537

I guess the way I look at it is that I have never made so much money at any particular job that I could afford to turn down making more money.

I have. I think maybe I see your point now - it is, as Dangerosa says, the difference between a Career and a career.

Clearly people do get by making a lot less than I make. However a lot of them also constantly worry about car and mortgage payments, how they are going to pay for the kids college and so on.

But some are happy just where they are. Those are the small-c careerists.

Is there such a saying as a “career man”? Do we say “he wants to have it all - father, career, etc”? No. We just say “that dude has a job.”

I guess I’m impatient for the day when it won’t matter, when men won’t get castigated for certain choices.

[brujaja]

Olives: I figured that this thread would have lots of answers, and I didn’t read them first, so forgive me if I repeat stuff others have said.

I have always admired you, ever since you joined here, because you seem to have actualized certain parts of yourself that are, alas, still latent in me. In fact, I envied you quite a bit. You seem also to have far better social skills than I. My birthday is the day before yours. So believe me when I say that I am delighted to hear that you are seriously considering having a child.

Mind you, my politics insist that I strongly suggest you consider a small family, because, you know, overpopulation. But I think you would make a wonderful mother.

I have a son who just turned sixteen. I was actually homeless during part of my pregnancy; and to be honest, before I had my son, I was a very different girl. However I, like you, am inclined to give a situation all my best once it’s established. I have never regretted it. Here’s what I know:

1. Your belly button will eventually turn inside out. No one told me this. It’s weird.

2. You will have to pee all the time. You will be hungry a lot, but I didn’t crave anything weird. Probably just more of what you already like.

3. I think you’re wise to not be in school for the last trimester. You’re not completely incapacitated, but really, you get kind of ruminative and fanciful. I think it’s better to have that time to stroke your tummy and talk to your new little friend. I definitely recommend talking to baby before it’s born. They say it makes you closer, and I agree.

4. I have small breasts. When my son was six months old, I had to start supplementing with formula because I wasn’t making enough milk. But the only reason I was able to go that long is because in my third trimester, I started craving fennel. Turns out that fennel tea increases milk production.

5. You may or may not want to take the first six months or so away from work because it really is so beautiful to bond with your little one, to wake up with them and watch them change & grow. There is so much that you will miss if you are working right away. The professional world can wait, honest.

6. As someone who has had interactions with social services over the years, I can say that people who are parents themselves are not only cut some extra slack by their co-workers – they also have more credibility with their clients. Non-parents who are in a position to judge you and make decisions that will profoundly affect your life and that of your children are, I think, universally regarded with some suspicion.

7. I am also a nanny for my good friend, who started working again when her daughter was about a year old. She can’t afford to pay much, but a big part of the reason I am doing this is because I have seen the changes in too many children who enter Head Start or some kind of nursery school very early. It’s hard to put into words, but I believe there are unarticulated assumptions and conclusions that children make about the world depending on the quality of their bond with their parents or another close caretaker. I honestly think that individual people with a loving committment to the baby or child are a much better way to go that a roomful of people with a roomful of contrasting ethics and ways. “Socialization” is not anything to worry about when they’re toddlers. They are all little heathens; and they (almost) all smooth out when it’s time. I realize that there are many different opinions about this; but I live in a large urban area where the results of harsh upbringings are all around me. When it comes time to entrust your little one’s care to others, just be really, really sure; and don’t be afraid to be too picky or to go with your gut.

8. That being said, don’t be a helicopter parent once they get bigger. If you let all things matter equally, your head will explode. Learn which rashes are dangerous (like meningitis rashes), & don’t worry about the rest. Babies also get high fevers sometimes. The closer you are to your child, the better you know when to worry. Do not sweat the small stuff and you will be glad later. They are washable, resilient, and seem to have pretty hard heads. Apparently, they can actually survive indefinitely on Vienna sausages and chili mac, despite your best efforts otherwise. Tell them you love them a lot.

That is all.

[Nava]

@Cat_Fight

I wonder – has anyone ever asked a man how he juggles (or intends to juggle) family and career? I’m sure it’s happened at some point, but from interviews with politicians to movie stars, it’s a standard question for women but not for men, even if we’re seeing (or just encouraging) men to take a more active role in their children’s lives.

Different language, different words, but my brother is a construction foreman. He got a phone call from his wife.
“Hi hon, how di/”
…
“What? That can’t be?”
…!!!
“Really?”
…
“Oh WOW”
hangs up
Chorus of construction workers: “congratulations Daddy!”

For the next few weeks, pretty much every “water cooler chat” at work involved “what do you guys plan on doing re. kindergarten, school, baby-is-sick, do you have family that can help, are you going to take paternity leave, will you add your vacation time to the leave?” But then, pretty much any guy there was either the father or grandfather of little ones, so the logistics of baby rearing was very much in their minds.

Whenever a project is finishing and they’re all nervous about whether they’ll get a new one or not, invariably there’s someone who tells him “hey, at least your wife is a doctor, if nothing comes up you ought’a be able to cut back some and live on her salary while you take care of the kids.” “Oh man, can you imagine him cleaning? Better not!”

[fessie]

That’s what I was hoping you’d decide olives :). I just don’t think one can “have it all”, even though I know a few mothers who come close - they also don’t sleep. And they have no time for reflection, it’s all reaction (and driving the kids somewhere). I’m glad you’ve decided to give yourself time to go through this academic process and continue your own blossoming.

I have a couple of friends with adopted children, it’s worked beautifully for them (though it was expensive and took a lot of time).

If you can open your heart to a child with special needs, the process isn’t nearly as lengthy or expensive. Personally I couldn’t do it, but you might be able to, I don’t know.

My sister has a Ph.D. in clinical psychology.

[Spice_Weasel]

brujaja thanks for the compliment, your post made me smile. I definitely want children, I just don’t think I’m ready to jump into that decision now. I guess for me it’s not a matter of ‘‘can it be done?’’ but ‘‘just because it technically can be done, is this the best time?’’ I realize many people don’t have that luxury–my Mom certainly never did. But fortunately, barring any freak surprises, I do have the ability to sit back and think about this. Which is exactly what I’ll do.
**
Dangerosa** good advice on researching adoption. We’ve already begun to do this, particularly international adoption which seems more suited to us, but as I said, mind wide open.

[msmith537]

@Cat_Fight

I wonder – has anyone ever asked a man how he juggles (or intends to juggle) family and career? I’m sure it’s happened at some point, but from interviews with politicians to movie stars, it’s a standard question for women but not for men, even if we’re seeing (or just encouraging) men to take a more active role in their children’s lives.

If anything the opposite is true. Society expects a man to sacrifice a low paying job he may potentially love for a well-paying and sensible “career”.

[Fiveyearlurker]

I’m looking forward to that one day of paternity leave I get next month.

[RickJay]

I’m a man who changed jobs to better balance work and family, deliberately joining a more family-friendly company that would allow me to spend more time at home taking care of my kid.

Anyone who doesn’t like it can kiss my gigantic, manly balls.

[Cisco]

@RickJay

I’m a man who changed jobs to better balance work and family, deliberately joining a more family-friendly company that would allow me to spend more time at home taking care of my kid.

Anyone who doesn’t like it can kiss my gigantic, manly balls.

I don’t want to go anywhere near your balls (metaphorically or literally) but I think that’s very admirable. I hate it when men devote their entire lives to work “so they can provide a good life for their kids” when what they’re really spending all the money on is mcmansion payments, BMW payments, nice clothes for themselves, country club membership to reward themselves on the weekend for working hard all week . . . etc etc etc. If they really wanted to do what’s best for their kids they’d work less, drive a sensible car, and devote their energy to quality time with them.

[Lissla_Lissar]

You may also drool. No one tells you that, either. And your mouth may taste funny. There are all sorts of bizzare pregnancy side effects.

I second the recommendation for anything by Ann Douglas- do not get What to Expect When You’re Expecting- it will make you feel guilty for eating anything but broccoli. The Unofficial Guide to Having a Baby is also good.

[NinetyWt]

@msmith537

If anything the opposite is true. Society expects a man to sacrifice a low paying job he may potentially love for a well-paying and sensible “career”.

I think you need to come hang out in a different part of society for a while.

[Rubystreak]

Hey Olives. I’m 5 weeks away from giving birth, so I can tell you what it’s been like so far, and what my plans are, since I will have to work full-time and have a baby simultaneously. Financially, we really don’t have a choice.

I got pregnant in late January after 6 months of really half assed trying. I did not think it would happen so fast, since I was on the Pill for 20 years and never had an accident, plus I was 36-37. But happen it did, even though I kinda wanted and thought I would have more time. C’est la vie. Worked all through the first and second trimesters. I was lucky that my morning sickness was minimal. I found that my gag reflex was greatly intensified, and that bad smells, gross stuff like mold or mildew, and gory stuff on TV made me gag when it never did before. Not being a big barfer, this never escalated into actual vomiting, but it might for others. Nonetheless, the first 2 trimesters were not too bad.

Most of my third trimester I was on summer vacation. My health has been great, except my hands and feet are very swollen and quite painful. There is really nothing for this, since otherwise I am healthy, but it really does suck. I started working again and am going to work another month before my leave starts, right after Columbus Day weekend. Baby is due on October 17. Already, I am having lots of trouble sleeping comfortably due to pain in hips, legs, feet, and hands. It’s very hard to find a position that works. Other than this, I’m OK, and I know other women have it much worse.

Maternity leave: my employer will pay me for 30 days, if I have the leave time saved up (which I do); otherwise, it would be unpaid. I could take up to 12 weeks unpaid, but we can’t afford it. I can get the leave extended with a doctor’s note for 2 more weeks, which I plan to get by hook or by crook, since I have enough sick days saved up to get paid for that time. I want to stay home until after Xmas break, to establish breast feeding firmly before the baby goes into daycare. We found a good provider for a very reasonable price, and he will be starting there when he’s about 10 weeks old. I am wrestling with my feelings about this, even though I have no choice financially. My midwife told me not to feel guilty for providing for my family; it’s only 7-8 hours a day for 185 days a year. He will be OK, and statistics show no correlation between intelligence and academic performance later in life and day care attendance as an infant. As long as I can maintain feeding him breast milk for at least 6 months, I will feel OK about the daycare situation. My bosses scheduled me so that I will have two free periods to pump at work, so it should be OK.

I have no idea how we will handle working full-time and being the parents of an infant. I guess you can check back with me in 2010 and I’ll tell you how it’s going.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I will tell you what my midwife told me: you cannot be in total control of how this goes down. Flexibility and an open mind are the key, since man plans and God laughs.