# The long and winding divorce..... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 1, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510 "2012-11-01T01:44:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/101 "2012-11-26T13:23:20Z")
I don’t think she’d get alimony, or she wouldn’t get it for a significant period of time. She might get it for an adjustment period, but if she’s making enough money to support herself, I don’t see that happening. Again, though, talk with your lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/102 "2012-11-26T13:37:21Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I don’t think she’d get alimony, or she wouldn’t get it for a significant period of time. She might get it for an adjustment period, but if she’s making enough money to support herself, I don’t see that happening. Again, though, talk with your lawyer. Not really. See my previous post. Bear in mind that spousal support quantum and duration is affected by child rearing and the length of the cohabitation/marriage. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Again, though, talk with your lawyer. By far the best advice of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/103 "2012-11-26T13:39:53Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > So would you ever marry again Leaffan ? No. I would love to meet someone with whom I could spend the rest of my life, but I don’t see the point in getting married again. I might consider it if **Cat Whisperer** or **MeanOldLady** proposed to me though. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/104 "2012-11-26T16:25:25Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > So, it’s not getting any easier. I can’t sleep. I can’t eat. I wish I could just go lay on a beach somewhere and forget about everything. I feel your pain, Leaffan, and once you have the groundwork laid, ie financials, separation agreement, and custody arrangements, consider a week in the sun then. The optics of going now might be misconstrued, especially if money is an issue. It is always an issue. I found that when the divorce proceedings started, it was like a death in the family, and I grieved for the loss of all that I had. It sucks, but it does get better, I promise. Like I said before, hit the gym, or the walking track, or whatever physical activity makes you feel good. One, it’ll keep your stress down. Two, you’ll be healthier. Three, you’ll feel better. You may also want to take the kids for a vacation at some point as well and keep building your relationship with them. I drove from Alberta to London, Ontario to visit my parents with the boys so they could see the country and I got to spend a lot of time with them. We hashed a lot of stuff out and had a great adventure to boot. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/105 "2012-11-26T16:45:33Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > No. > > I would love to meet someone with whom I could spend the rest of my life, but I don’t see the point in getting married again. I might consider it if **Cat Whisperer** or **MeanOldLady** proposed to me though. Funny. I said the same thing, but my present spouse made an arguement I couldn’t refute. “You’ve had a chance to screw up a marriage already, and I haven’t. Why should I be denied the chance of getting married because you were burned? Maybe this time you’ll know what to do right…” Faultless female logic, and I married her anyway! As a side note, my ex waived spousal support in the separation agreement. Child support was calculated based on 50% joint mutual custody, with me paying the difference. If I had to pay, for ease of math, $1000/mo to her for full custody, and she would have had to pay me $500/mo, then I would pay her the $250 difference (half of the $500) as the boys were with me half the time. This was also in the separation agreement. I fuly agree with you getting your own lawyers, even if it is amicable. Try using the Collaborative Law route if you can. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/106 "2012-11-26T16:49:44Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > No. > > I would love to meet someone with whom I could spend the rest of my life, but I don’t see the point in getting married again. I might consider it if **Cat Whisperer** or **MeanOldLady** proposed to me though. Well, I’ll have to ask my husband. I don’t think he’d go for me marrying a fan of the Leafs. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/107 "2012-11-26T18:40:33Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Well, I’ll have to ask my husband. Why the hell don’t you wear a wedding ring on this forum if you’re married? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/108 "2012-11-28T16:22:28Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Er, sorry - she buys him out. And they need to make sure that both the deed and mortgage are in her name **only**. If she just gives him half the value of the house, he is still on the hook regarding the mortgage. Yes - this is what all the real estate columnists say. If she buys him out, he needs to insist as part of the decree that she refinance in her own name. My brother didn’t do this when he divorced - and while it all worked out in the end, his ex made at least one payment late and it hit his credit rating. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/109 "2012-12-05T01:45:56Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > So, she’s delusional now and thinks she can go out and buy a condominium while we both hold a mortgage on this house. I tried to tell her that the bank would no doubt decline her mortgage application since, you know, we already have a mortgage on a home and until we sell she (with an Administrative Assistant’s salary) wouldn’t have a hope in hell of attaining another mortgage. > > This is the kind of free-wheeling spending shit I’ve been going through for 15 years. She has no ability to understand basic principles and has literally single-handedly fucked me on my credit rating without my knowledge. > > Thanks! And an update on this. She now is extremely upset to find out that selling this place, and settling all debts, will not leave her in a realistic financial situation to purchase the condo she’s looking at. She will not have the required down payment with her salary. Oh, and it’s too late to get the roof re-shingled now till spring, which really needs to be done. There’s some guilt trips being laid now. “I’ll be out on the streets! And so will the kids!” I believe she’s trying to coerce me into handing all equity in the house to her so she can live comfortably with the kids, while I rent a shithole somewhere. I’ve told her I might be able to work on an agreement where she gets more equity in the home than I, but perhaps that could be traded for reduced child support or alimony until things even out. I don’t even know if that’s possible, but she’s not biting. We have a mutual lawyer on retainer now and are moving the ball down the court on a separation agreement. Thanks for listening. I know it takes two to tango, and she’s probably offering up her side of the story somewhere, but there’s really nothing in here that I’m keeping back. It’s spiraling down the drain as I suppose these things do. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/110 "2012-12-05T02:48:35Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > \ > We have a mutual lawyer on retainer now and are moving the ball down the court on a separation agreement.\ Thanks for the update - I wish it was better news. Are you sure the mutual lawyer is a good idea? One thing that strikes me about your update - your wife didn’t realize how much equity you had in your house, and how things shook down with splitting everything down the middle? She truly thought that you would just give her everything and take nothing? Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/111 "2012-12-05T03:11:35Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > A… > I’ve told her I might be able to work on an agreement where she gets more equity in the home than I, but perhaps that could be traded for reduced child support or alimony until things even out. I don’t even know if that’s possible, but she’s not biting… Child support: possibly not - states have rules and formulas. Aimony: yes, possibly. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/112 "2012-12-05T03:32:48Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Thanks for the update - I wish it was better news. Are you sure the mutual lawyer is a good idea? I don’t know. I don’t know anything about this. In retrospect, (and somewhat unrelated) I don’t want to come across as a misogynistic husband who is bashing his ex. I’m really not intending to do that. She is the mother of my kids, and I love my kids very much. I’m just trying to navigate the waters with your help. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/113 "2012-12-05T03:52:41Z")
Well, I’ll give you some help (I hope) - my husband and I sold our house and bought a new one three years ago, and didn’t use our brother-in-law who is a real estate agent because we didn’t think he was competent enough at his job for such a huge transaction. It ended up with him not talking to us for the last three years, but I still think we made the right decision, since the sale and purchase went well without him. Your divorce from your wife and the separation of your financial entanglement is also a huge transaction - I don’t think you’re serving your best interests by sharing a lawyer with her (especially since she seems to be showing herself to be unreasonable and unrealistic). I haven’t been divorced, so I don’t have experience with this, but from what I’m seeing here, it’s going to get adversarial, and your lawyer needs to be fully in your corner. My two cents, for what it’s worth. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/114 "2012-12-05T04:05:23Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > That’s right - it looks like it’s back to normal now. > > If things have been unpleasant between you and your wife for some time now, your kids might surprise you - I spent a lot of time as a kid _wishing_ my fighting, screaming parents would get a divorce. If you and your soon-to-be-ex wife are both happier apart, it’s entirely possible the kids will pick up on that. So much this. I was so happy when my parents got divorced. It felt like a huge black could was lifted off our family. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/115 "2012-12-05T04:09:39Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Well, I’ll give you some help (I hope) Major thanks. Appreciate the perspective. I started typing another paragraph, but in retrospect, it’s late and I shouldn’t respond out of emotion right now. Thanks, ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/116 "2012-12-05T07:51:09Z")
An easy way for a spouse to rip up a separation agreement at a later date is to establish that because he or she did not have independent legal advice, he or she did not really understand either the underlying facts or the applicable law, or was under undue pressure, or who was not adequqtely represented by his or her lawyer. The best way to block a spouse from ripping up the deal at a later date is to ensure that the spouse’s lawyer sign a certificate of independent legal advice that is attached to the separation agreement. A lawyer on a joint retainer in a matrimonial dispute can not sign a certificate of independent legal advice for either party, for the lawyer is not independent by nature of the retainer being joint. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/117 "2012-12-05T08:04:07Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > … I don’t think you’re serving your best interests by sharing a lawyer with her (especially since she seems to be showing herself to be unreasonable and unrealistic). Neither do I. I think you would do best to have your own lawyer. Not because I’m trying to get two lawyers employed on your matter instead of one, but because “independent legal advice” can be an important thing to get when dividing assets. For example, in my jurisdiction, many authorities (banks, for example, though I would not be surprised if the same applied to mortgagees and land titles offices) will refuse to honour separation agreements that divide joint assets unless each party can show a certificate of independent legal advice from different lawyers. I don’t know the situation in your province ( **Muffin** , little help?), but once your joint lawyer draws up a separation agreement, I’d suggest that you owe it to yourself to get 30 to 60 minutes of an entirely different lawyer’s time, so he or she can go over whatever has been drafted and explain exactly what you’re getting yourself into. You may even be able to get the initial 30 minutes free of charge, if you go through the LSUC’s referral service. Can’t hurt to call and ask, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/118 "2012-12-05T08:05:13Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > An easy way for a spouse to rip up a separation agreement at a later date is to establish that because he or she did not have independent legal advice, he or she did not really understand either the underlying facts or the applicable law, or was under undue pressure, or who was not adequqtely represented by his or her lawyer. The best way to block a spouse from ripping up the deal at a later date is to ensure that the spouse’s lawyer sign a certificate of independent legal advice that is attached to the separation agreement. A lawyer on a joint retainer in a matrimonial dispute can not sign a certificate of independent legal advice for either party, for the lawyer is not independent by nature of the retainer being joint. Great timing, given my request. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/119 "2012-12-05T08:49:56Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I don’t know the situation in your province ( **Muffin** , little help?), but once your joint lawyer draws up a separation agreement, I’d suggest that you owe it to yourself to get 30 to 60 minutes of an entirely different lawyer’s time, so he or she can go over whatever has been drafted and explain exactly what you’re getting yourself into. And make sure that the other side also gets ILA, for without it, the other side will have a greatly imporoved chance of ripping up the deal later on. If a party refuses to get ILA, then there should be a term in the agreement initialled by that party setting out that he or she was advised to get an independent lawyer, had the opportunity to get an independent lawyer, and has chosen not to get an independent lawyer. This would be in addition to terms setting out that the party understands his or her rights and obligations under the agreement, understands the nature and consequences of the agreement, acknowledges that the agreement is fair and reasonable, acknowledges that he or she is not under any undue influence or duress and is signing voluntarily, and that the agreement was prepared jointly by both parties. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510/120 "2012-12-05T09:48:45Z")
Something I’m curious about is the frequency of joint retainers in family law separation matters, and the proportion of lawyers who take joint retainers in family law separation matters. I usually don’t accept joint retainers in family law matters, for it exposes me to a greater risk of being sued. My two exceptions are when I am hired jointly as a mediator, but even then I will only do it if both parties have retained ther own independent lawyers, or when I am drafting simple wills and POAs for couples in stable relationships, but even then it is with the provisos that nothing will be confidential between them and that I will not represent either of them if things start to go sideways. Presently, lawyers in Ontario have discretion to handle joint retainers in family law matters if both parties give informed consent to the confict of interest (thus the ability to do simple mutual wills), but even then, only until the matter becomes a dispute, at which time the lawyer must quit. That raises the very difficult question of just when does a matrimonial separation become a dispute. Since it is my ass flapping out there in the breeze exposed to the cold wind of liability, I’m not about to take a chance on deciding what constitutes a dispute in a matrimonial separation, particularly given that I can never know what goes on behind the scene with the couple, and given that there are very often power imbalances (financial or emotional) between the parties. For me, once a party contacts a lawyer about a separation, that is too close to the dispute line for me to treat it as anything other than a dispute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-and-winding-divorce/639510.md?page=7)