# The long term effects of recession & middle class squeeze **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186 "2009-11-19T19:19:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/61 "2009-12-09T21:40:35Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Look it up if you do not believe me. The cost of care for a type II diabetic is about 10k a year and the cheapest gastric banding operations are about 10k. which specific procedure? there are a number of ways to perform bariatric operations. And as I said, given how sensationalist our media is, I am amazed that it has not been trumpeted in every tabloid and talk show, and discussed by every doctor I have … ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/62 "2009-12-09T22:17:16Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > which specific procedure? there are a number of ways to perform bariatric operations. > > And as I said, given how sensationalist our media is, I am amazed that it has not been trumpeted in every tabloid and talk show, and discussed by every doctor I have … All of them seem to have that effect. However the lap band seems to be the least expensive, easiest to reverse and fewest side effects. Type II diabetes may be a disorder of the jejunum. > **[Diabetes May Be Disorder Of Upper Intestine: Surgery May Correct It](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080305113659.htm)** > > Growing evidence shows that surgery may effectively cure Type 2 diabetes -- an approach that not only may change the way the disease is treated, but that introduces a new way of thinking about diabetes. The upper intestine of diabetic patients may be... In this small study of the lap band surgery, 73% of people saw the symptoms of type II diabetes disappear. > **[Understanding Diagnosis and Treatment of Diabetes](https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/understanding-diabetes-detection-treatment)** > > WebMD's comprehensive guide to the diagnosis and treatment of diabetes. > **[Gastric bypass: Is it a diabetes fix?](https://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-diabetes-surgery26-2009oct26-story.html)** > > Within days of various weight-loss surgeries, blood sugar levels become easier to manage -- or are normal. As many as 86% of obese people with Type 2 diabetes find their diabetes is gone or much easier to control within days of having weight-loss surgery, according to a meta-analysis of 19 studies published earlier this year in the American Journal of Medicine (78% of patients with a remission of diabetes and 86.6% with remission or improvement). But experts still aren’t sure why obesity surgery helps resolve Type 2 diabetes or how long the effect might last. And they disagree on how big a role surgery should take in treating the illness. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/63 "2009-12-10T01:19:16Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > which specific procedure? there are a number of ways to perform bariatric operations. > > And as I said, given how sensationalist our media is, I am amazed that it has not been trumpeted in every tabloid and talk show, and discussed by every doctor I have … I’m not surprised you haven’t heard. I’m also a Type II, and heard about this at least 18 months ago, and my doc hasn’t mentioned either. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/64 "2009-12-14T22:08:43Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > There is also an acceptance of a different standard of living…for instance, in Germany many people don’t own cars. Homes are often passed generationally. There is a different level of consumerism. In many cases, though, the lack of a car isn’t as much of a handicap as it would be in most of North America. They didn’t go though a seventy-five year insanity of demolishing, neglecting, and fleeing from the urban centers. They didn’t have the cultural expectation that raising children requires a back yard, and they also have enjoyed a stable population size that doesn’t require a continual supply of new-built houses ever further from the centers of business and employment. It was amazing to me how well German cities had recovered from Allied mass bombing raids when I was there, only 33 years after the end of the war. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/65 "2009-12-14T22:24:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Education costs have gone up far faster than inflation. You forgot one more bummer - college graduates today have a much higher burden of debt than my generation did. The interest rates are higher and the terms are worse. I had just a bit of debt, because my father, solidly middle class, was able to pay for a relatively high priced college for me. I didn’t have to pay any of it off until after I finished grad school, by which time inflation had reduces the real cost of the debt so much that I wound up paying it off early because postage was getting to be a big chunk of the payment. Today students face a tighter market with two strikes against them. Cost of me to go to college in 1982 (Freshman year): $45 per semester (tuition and fees) Cost final year (1987): about $600 per semester. Same school when my brother went (his last year about 1995): About $4000 per semester. This is just the ‘State U’. edit - just checked. It is now $8357 per semester. However, the site only shows ‘tuition’…I wonder how much the ‘fees’ are. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/66 "2009-12-14T22:31:54Z")
Sorry…have to post again. I am getting outraged. Well, not getting outraged - I have always been outraged but this just brings it back. It is wrong to expect some 18 year old kid to go to college plus dump $17K+ per year for tuition alone (let alone living expenses) to go to State U. This is fucking aaarrggg this is WRONG! WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG! :mad: Time to make some more phone calls, write some more letters but, shot, they won’t listen to me. It’s like pissing in the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Cullain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d26b3c/32.png) [@Cullain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cullain)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/67 "2009-12-15T04:52:43Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Sorry..have to post again. > > I am getting outraged. Well, not getting outraged - I have always been outraged but this just brings it back. > > It is wrong to expect some 18 year old kid to go to college plus dump $17K+ per year for tuition alone (let alone living expenses) to go to State U. This is fucking aaarrggg this is WRONG! > > WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG! :mad: > > Time to make some more phone calls, write some more letters but, shot, they won’t listen to me. It’s like pissing in the wind. Agree, completely. I was lucky enough to be a scholarship kid, but if that wasn’t the case I’m not sure how I would have handled college tuition. Most of my cousins didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/68 "2009-12-15T14:54:25Z")
> [@Cullain](#): > > Agree, completely. I was lucky enough to be a scholarship kid, but if that wasn’t the case I’m not sure how I would have handled college tuition. Most of my cousins didn’t. I am first generation college. My younger brother and a smattering of cousins followed me in later years. If I would have had to pay $17K a year instead of $100, I wouldn’t have been able to go. My parents sure wouldn’t have helped me. I had no one to turn to for advice (and don’t even get me started on the career counc. in high school…they were terrible). I went because it was essentially free, I was interested and I could work while going and still make enough to support myself. Today I would have been screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/69 "2009-12-15T18:32:23Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Cost of me to go to college in 1982 (Freshman year): $45 per semester (tuition and fees) > > Cost final year (1987): about $600 per semester. > > Same school when my brother went (his last year about 1995): About $4000 per semester. > > This is just the ‘State U’. > > edit - just checked. It is now $8357 per semester. However, the site only shows ‘tuition’…I wonder how much the ‘fees’ are. You were lucky. My first year of a State University in 1985 was $4k in tuition. I went out of state for a year to a neighboring state school and paid $10k for the 84-85 school year. My dad paid $600 a year in 1962. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/70 "2009-12-15T19:50:48Z")
17k a year is insanely high. Most in state 4 year universities charge roughly $8000/yr in tuition for in state students. But still. In between the endlessly higher cost of college & healthcare, jobs with stagnant wages and fewer benefits, etc. I’m not sure what the long term prognosis is. Combine that with the psychological impact of the recession though. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/71 "2009-12-16T14:59:15Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > 17k a year is insanely high. Most in state 4 year universities charge roughly $8000/yr in tuition for in state students. > > But still. In between the endlessly higher cost of college & healthcare, jobs with stagnant wages and fewer benefits, etc. I’m not sure what the long term prognosis is. Combine that with the psychological impact of the recession though. You are right - I looked again. The $8357 includes dorm. Taking that out it looks like about $4500 per semester for tuition. Not absolutely insane but still wayyyy to high. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/72 "2009-12-16T16:58:56Z")
We can buy cheap crap from China at Walmart! What did we do before this?I mean, where did we get: -poisonous foods -defective toys -clothing that lasts 6 months -contaminated milk products -drywall that emits corrosive acid fumes? Our decline in inciome is matched by the cheaper prices we pay for this stuff!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/73 "2009-12-16T17:09:11Z")
As Rush Limbaugh would say, the middle class are just not the people who make the country work, it’s the top 10%. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/74 "2010-01-03T21:17:42Z")
In Spain the unemployment rate for young people is at 43% now. [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/business/global/01jobless.html?em](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/business/global/01jobless.html?em) So again, what are the long term consequences materially and psychologically from this? Spain has a better safety net, but people being unable to lift themselves up well into their 30s is going to have long term repercussions. Will the birth rate dramatically decline? Spain (as an example) already has a low birth rate, but I’m sure it’ll go even lower. It just came out that net job growth from 1999-2009 was 0% in the US. Every decade from 1940 onward saw a 20-40% gain. This last one saw a 0% gain. We have more people, and fewer jobs. The jobs that still remain have fewer benefits. > **[Aughts were a lost decade for U.S. economy, workers](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/01/AR2010010101196.html?hpid=topnews)** > > For most of the past 70 years, the U.S. economy has grown at a steady clip, generating perpetually higher incomes and wealth for American households. But since 2000, the story is starkly different. The system isn’t sustainable much longer as is. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/75 "2010-01-04T16:37:11Z")
I’m approaching 30, and I see very few married couples at my age that accomplished the same things my parents did when I was little: a house (albeit rented), two paid-for cars, a retirement (via a pension), and no other debt. I’d say that my parents were fairly representative of the overall populace back then. Add to the mix that most of us cannot reach on two white collar incomes what my parents did on military income, and I’d say you are right that there’s definitely a problem happening. We don’t have retirement savings, we don’t have paid for cars, we’re still paying off student loans. I assign the blame differently, though. Median student loan debt is [$19,999 with interest rates at 6.0%](http://www.finaid.org/loans/), the average credit card balance among undergraduates is [$3,173](http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php#youngadults). I couldn’t find statistics on what percent of people take out an auto loan, but I doubt it’s a minority. This link says the average auto buyer takes out [$27,000 on a car with a monthly payment of $496](http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/03/americans_today_take_nearly_tw.html). I infer from these above figures that the average college graduate gets very little after taxes and debt repayments. I know that was the situation for me; I had $40,000 in non-mortgage debt. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/76 "2010-01-04T17:26:23Z")
The reallysick thing: as we sink into decline, the defense budget keeps on rising. Just like Spain in th 17th century. We have the most powerful navy in the world-and are sinking into bankruptcey! I don’t worry, because the whole system is close to collapse. Reform without collapse is impossible. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/77 "2010-01-04T18:17:32Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > I’m approaching 30, and I see very few married couples at my age that accomplished the same things my parents did when I was little: a house (albeit rented), two paid-for cars, a retirement (via a pension), and no other debt. I’d say that my parents were fairly representative of the overall populace back then. I’m a bit older (37) but other than friends who chose to stay in NYC (and thus live in expensive, tiny appartments), most of the people I went to high school and college with have settled into a typical middle/upper-middle class lifestyle of a house, cars and kids. It doesn’t seem to matter if they were poor students or where they went after high school or what career they are in. The only difference seems to be what part of the country they ended up in. Of course there is some confirmation bias there. We all grew up in Fairfield County, CT, one of the wealthiest parts of the country (even though we mostly grew up in what I associate with middle-class lifestyles). My college peers obviously graduated from the same elite (and expensive) institutions that I went to. > [@Icerigger](#): > > As Rush Limbaugh would say, the middle class are just not the people who make the country work, it’s the top 10%. Did he actually say that or is that something he would say? Whether or not that is factually correct is irrelevant. What matters is if that top 10% is a fixed population that has become a de-facto aristocracy or if it represents the top 10% best and brightest of a nation of 300 million hard working and innovative people? I think that the main concern is that door for entering the top 10% is closing. If people cannot afford education, cannot find entry level jobs into rewarding long-term careers and cannot get financing to start small businesses, they are cut off from the tools and resources needed to build and maintain long-term wealth. And it’s a bullshit statement anyway. Everyone makes the country “work” because everything around you is the result of a ton of people each doing their little bit. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/78 "2010-01-04T18:50:15Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The reallysick thing: as we sink into decline, the defense budget keeps on rising. Just like Spain in th 17th century. We have the most powerful navy in the world-and are sinking into bankruptcey! > I don’t worry, because the whole system is close to collapse. Reform without collapse is impossible. are you sure that military spending is actually to blame here? I know it’s wiki so take it with a grain of salt: > **[Military budget of the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States)** > > The military budget of the United States is the largest portion of the discretionary federal budget allocated to the Department of Defense (DoD), or more broadly, the portion of the budget that goes to any military-related expenditures. It pays the salaries, training, and health care of uniformed and civilian personnel, maintains arms, equipment and facilities, funds operations, and develops and buys new items. The budget funds six branches of the US military: the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Coa... US per capita spending on defense, everything thrown in (ie, vet affairs, defense-related debt, etc) has been around $3k/person ever since the early '60s. Maybe a better measure is defense spending as a % of GDP > [@](#): > > For FY 2010, Department of Defense spending amounts to 4.7% of GDP.[22] Because the U.S. GDP has risen over time, the military budget can rise in absolute terms while shrinking as a percentage of the GDP. For example, the Department of Defense budget is slated to be $664 billion in 2010 (including the cost of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan previously funded through supplementary budget legislation[23][24]), higher than at any other point in American history, but still 1.1-1.4% lower as a percentage of GDP than the amount spent on defense during the peak of Cold-War military spending in the late 1980s.[22] Seems like a stretch to blame the recession and middle class squeeze on defense spending. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/79 "2010-01-04T20:36:28Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > I’m approaching 30, and I see very few married couples at my age that accomplished the same things my parents did when I was little: a house (albeit rented), two paid-for cars, a retirement (via a pension), and no other debt. I’d say that my parents were fairly representative of the overall populace back then. > > Add to the mix that most of us cannot reach on two white collar incomes what my parents did on military income, and I’d say you are right that there’s definitely a problem happening. We don’t have retirement savings, we don’t have paid for cars, we’re still paying off student loans. > > I assign the blame differently, though. Median student loan debt is [$19,999 with interest rates at 6.0%](http://www.finaid.org/loans/), the average credit card balance among undergraduates is [$3,173](http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php#youngadults). I couldn’t find statistics on what percent of people take out an auto loan, but I doubt it’s a minority. This link says the average auto buyer takes out [$27,000 on a car with a monthly payment of $496](http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/03/americans_today_take_nearly_tw.html). > > I infer from these above figures that the average college graduate gets very little after taxes and debt repayments. I know that was the situation for me; I had $40,000 in non-mortgage debt. I’m older, too (43) and bought my first house when I was 21. But there are a lot of differences between now and then. I didn’t have a car, my house was on a bus route in Minneapolis and I took the bus. I didn’t have a cell phone, cable TV, or a computer. My expenses were my mortgage (on a small fixer upper opportunity), my utilities, and food and clothing for myself. The library card got good and frequent use and I watched broadcast TV (on a used set my parents had gotten rid of that sort of worked). I have never owned a stereo (there is one in the house, they seem to come with men). We cut extras out of our lives last year, in part because my kids were beginning to view cell phones, cable, WoW subscriptions, regular iTunes purchases, ringtones (?!?) and the ability to stop at a gas station and pick up a snack as things that were necessary to maintain life. If more people were willing to live in the starter homes like I lived in, and willing to live on a shoestring, more people would be able to afford homes. Similar thought with student loan debt…part time school at a public college can really lower the amount of debt you are obligated to take on (me, I believe in paying for college for my own kids simply because I think student loan debt is a huge burden starting out. My college was paid for by my parents and a scholarship - my husbands we paid the bills on for years). ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186/80 "2010-01-05T03:09:02Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > If more people were willing to live in the starter homes like I lived in, and willing to live on a shoestring, more people would be able to afford homes. S I wish to hell I could afford a starter home. I don’t have a million and a half. Plus taxes. Plus oil. Plus maintenance costs… I make a good living, but I’ll never own a home. Not without moving to a different state, or going from a one hour commute to a two hour commute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-long-term-effects-of-recession-middle-class-squeeze/518186.md?page=5)