# The "Longest Election Campaign in Modern Canada" Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 2, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807 "2015-08-02T15:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/301 "2015-09-12T06:20:16Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Proven untrue. By which you mean, ‘[proven in a court of law to have happened](http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/michael-sona-wont-appeal-robocalls-conviction-but-will-seek-lighter-sentence-lawyer)’? > [@](#): > > Sona was found guilty in August of attempting to prevent people from voting by sending a robocall to thousands of opposition supporters directing them to the wrong polling station. Not quite what I would call ‘proven untrue’. And it’s [hard to believe young Michael Sona did it all by himself](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/guelph-robocall-victims-ask-elections-canada-to-reopen-case-1.3158248) (particularly since it happened in [ridings across the country](http://www.vancouverobserver.com/world/canada/2012/02/27/robogate-election-scandal-11-robo-call-ridings-linked-conservatives-11-seat)): > [@](#): > > On polling day, May 2, 2011, hundreds of calls purporting to be from Elections Canada and giving erroneous poll information were made in the riding of Guelph. > > A Federal Court judge eventually concluded that fraud was a factor in the robocalls, and that the Conservative party database known as the Constituency Information Management System, or CIMS, was likely the source of the contact information used. > > Former Conservative staffer Michael Sona was eventually charged in connection to the robocalls controversy; however, the judge presiding over the case said that he believed Sona did not work alone. Seems like the only reason a bunch more people didn’t get charged was lack of a paper trail. Or maybe Sona did do it all alone. Maybe he’s like Nigel Wright. Just convinced he was doing the party, and the country, a favour, by deceiving the public and doing something highly irregular in the hopes of prolonging Conservative rule. All by himself, of course (except for all the other people that knew what was going on). And, like Wright, had to take the fall for his valiant deed of partisan loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/302 "2015-09-12T06:46:23Z")
To further back up my comment about the lack of charges being due more to an absence of a paper trail than a lack of wrongdoing: > [@](#): > > In May 2013, Federal Court Judge Richard Mosley ruled in a civil case that **fraud did take place “in ridings across the country”** but he could not overturn results in six contested ridings because there was not enough evidence to prove the fraud influenced the outcomes. > > Mosley’s judgment concluded that the “most likely source of the information used to make the misleading phone calls was the CIMS database maintained and controlled by the (Conservative Party of Canada), accessed for that purpose by a person or persons unknown to this court.” > > Mosley found no evidence that use of the Conservative database was condoned by the party. > > “ **Rather, the evidence points to elaborate efforts to conceal** the identity of those accessing the database and arranging for the calls to be made,” he ruled. From [here](http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/looming-election-makes-final-guelph-robocalls-appeal-moot-judge-rules-1.2458101). Just so we have, as Rosemary Barton might say, all the facts on the table. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/303 "2015-09-12T13:43:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > 1. Negative political ads - all the time > The day after Trudeau was elected Liberal leader, the negative ads about him from the CPC started up. They implied he was “effeminate”. They used every negative stereotype in the books. On TV, Radio and in print. They used taxpayer money to send these ads to constituents. And we were years away from an election. They mocked his hair. (and still do), like playground children. I wouldn’t mind the attack ads as much if they made any sense. But as far as I can tell, Trudeau is a bad person because: [ul][li]If he legalised marijuana, then children would be able to get marijuana illegally and nobody wants that.[/li][li]Sending winter jackets to refugees is a bad idea.[/li][li]His party’s propensity for big spending would have been disastrous during the financial crisis, when big spending was necessary to get us out of the crisis.[/li][\*]Also, canoe instructors with nice hair are bad people.[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/304 "2015-09-12T16:43:39Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Proven untrue. Given **Wolfpup** ’s citations, particularly the conviction of Conservative Michael Sona for conducting the Robocalls, and the judge’s comment that > [@](#): > > “Rather, the evidence points to elaborate efforts to conceal the identity of those accessing the database and arranging for the calls to be made,” he ruled. I really wonder where you get this “proven untrue” from. I mean, it’s like you are living in an alternative universe, where facts can simply be ignored. Were you simply ignorant of Sona’s conviction? Were you unaware that the judge said that he could convict nobody else because there were elaborate efforts to conceal evidence? You’ve pulled a complete 180 here. There has been a CONVICTION in this case. Evidence of greater complicity within the Conservative party has been CONCEALED. This is not my opinion. A Canadian JUDGE in the case said this. It’s like you can look up at the sky, and swear that it is red. You’re absolutely convinced that it is red, and there is nothing anyone can say that will make you change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/305 "2015-09-12T19:19:47Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > If he legalised marijuana, then children would be able to get marijuana illegally and nobody wants that. I find this particular line of attack to be the most ridiculous and the one that shows the Conservatives to be totally out of touch. Want to know where to get a sack of weed nowadays? Ask a 15 year old. ANY 15 year old. If it takes more than one phone call you might be talking to one of those weird religious kids and you should back away slowly. But if you can’t get a bag of weed off of any kid these days it’s because they don’t trust you and not because they don’t have access. As regards access, I work at a liquor store. I sell a product that underage consumers desire highly enough that there are movies made about the quest for it. I am assuming that if marijuana were to be made legal it would be regulated and distributed the same way. And do you know what this means? ZERO access for the kids! Every single person who isn’t obviously of age has to present their credentials and if we don’t check them the store faces huge fines. And this is tested on a random basis by government inspectors who will send actual kids in to try to slip past our system. Anyone who says regulating marijuana will make it easier for kids to buy has no clue what is going on out there right now. Marijuana is much much easier for anyone of any age to access at any time than alcohol is. Legalizing it can only make it harder to get and anyone who has given actual thought to the issue knows this. But the Conservatives want to just repeat their incorrect little factoid over and over again until it becomes true. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/306 "2015-09-12T19:26:14Z")
For the record, I provided a number of citations about Harper, but the robocall and Michael Sona cites were from **wolfstu** , a different species in the wolf-like genus _canis_. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/307 "2015-09-12T20:08:28Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > I find this particular line of attack to be the most ridiculous and the one that shows the Conservatives to be totally out of touch. Want to know where to get a sack of weed nowadays? Ask a 15 year old. ANY 15 year old. Yes but it’s not _legal_! You have to get yourself into the mindset of the Harper neanderthals. Their ideal situation if they could manage it under their law’n’order agenda and mandatory minimums is probably something along the lines that every such kid should get a mandatory life sentence for his own good. > [@DWMarch](#): > > As regards access, I work at a liquor store. I sell a product that underage consumers desire highly enough that there are movies made about the quest for it. I am assuming that if marijuana were to be made legal it would be regulated and distributed the same way. Exactly. I’ve often seen kids being asked for ID at the Ontario liquor stores which is the _only_ place you can buy hard liquor in Ontario – they are run by the government and the staff are under strict instructions about both selling to minors and selling to anyone who appears intoxicated. I don’t think drug dealers care about either. Frankly I have been on the fence about legalization but now that the Ontario Centre for Addiction and Mental Health [has revised their policy in favour of legalization](http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/about_camh/newsroom/news_releases_media_advisories_and_backgrounders/current_year/Pages/CAMH-releases-new-Cannabis-Policy-Framework.aspx) I’m ready to support it. CAMH is a conservative organization (as in, cautious and representative of the traditional medical establishment) and was formerly advocating decriminalization but not legalization due to continuing concerns about long-term impacts. I doubt that Harper or any of his troglodytes even know about this change, or even know what CAMH is. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/308 "2015-09-12T20:56:38Z")
Robocalls: one guy. Guess which [other party](http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/matt-gurney-liberals-repeat-liberals-fined-for-robocalls-in-guelph) had one guy making robocalls? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/309 "2015-09-12T21:16:06Z")
ffs. Robocalls are legal. The Liberal party didn’t say who was paying for the calls and got fined for that infraction. The Conservatives had a guy make Robocalls to fuck with people’s ability to vote and got sentenced jail time. How can you compare those two infractions with a straight face? How can you not admit that “proven untrue” was wrong? Blind partisanship like yours is so damn ugly. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/310 "2015-09-12T23:35:58Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > ffs. Robocalls are legal. The Liberal party didn’t say who was paying for the calls and got fined for that infraction. The Conservatives had a guy make Robocalls to fuck with people’s ability to vote and got sentenced jail time. How can you compare those two infractions with a straight face? Or, as **Leaffan** ’s own link says: > [@](#): > > This inadvertent error does not change the situation regarding the alleged Conservative misdeeds. Which, let us be clear, are no longer ‘alleged’, having resulted in convictions for both Sona and del Mastro (mentioned in the link). ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/311 "2015-09-13T00:45:43Z")
Serious question **Leaffan** : Do you KNOW that what you are posting is obviously, provably false? Or do you really, truly think you are correct? I mean, you know that Sona was convicted and jailed for the robocalls that were designed to send opposition voters to the wrong polls… didn’t you? And you were aware that the judge in the case was clear when he said that evidence of further complicity by others was covered up… right? And you know that by simply bringing up a vaguely similar case, it does not mean that Sona was innocent, right? I am very serious… what is spurring you on to post things that are clearly, obviously, provably false? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/312 "2015-09-13T02:43:36Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > Or, as **Leaffan** ’s own link says: > > > [@](#): > > > > This inadvertent error does not change the situation regarding the alleged Conservative misdeeds. > > Which, let us be clear, are no longer ‘alleged’, having resulted in convictions for both Sona and del Mastro (mentioned in the link). Yep. But I would have put it this way: > [@](#): > > As **Leaffan** ’s own link from the _National Post_ says: > > > [@](#): > > > > This inadvertent error does not change the situation regarding the alleged Conservative misdeeds … But you can bet on the Tories using the CRTC’s ruling against Mr. Valeriote to their advantage > > IOW, even the heavily right-leaning _National Post_, previously praised by **Leaffan** as one of the good ones because they’re Harper sycophants, predicts that partisan hacks will try to draw an equivalence between these two completely non-equivalent events. Because in one case you have a lone Liberal candidate who was fined by a communications regulatory organization for failing to identify the source of his promotional robocalls. And in the other case you have a Conservative operative who was tried and convicted in court of election fraud – after trying to illegally influence election results in 200 ridings across the country by making massive numbers of robocalls containing intentionally wrong information specifically intended to keep people from voting. An act which would require an incredible stretch of imagination to believe that he could have perpetrated alone and without the knowledge of Harper minions. An act which said Harper minions then went to great lengths to try to cover up. Yeah, it’s exactly the same thing. :rolleyes: To suggest such constitutes political hackery of truly stunning proportions. I personally find it embarrassing that people from outside the country are reading this about how we apparently conduct elections. I can only say that this doesn’t typify Canada. It typifies the Harper ethos, and with any luck come this election, we’ve seen the last of it. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2015, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/313 "2015-09-14T07:29:25Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > I find this particular line of attack to be the most ridiculous and the one that shows the Conservatives to be totally out of touch. Want to know where to get a sack of weed nowadays? Ask a 15 year old. ANY 15 year old. My nephews, thanks to the helicopter-ishness of my sister, have no idea how to score drugs. In spite of the fact that they are 17 and 18 respectively, their mental age, as far as I can see, is 12. When I was their age, I was smoking cigarettes, drinking beer, shooting dice, playing cards, and betting horses. Just saying, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/314 "2015-09-14T14:32:19Z")
Robocalls: Again, it’s one guy. This is not the entire Conservative party. The party, as a whole, still maintains my trust. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/315 "2015-09-14T15:44:13Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Robocalls: Again, it’s one guy. This is not the entire Conservative party. > > The party, as a whole, still maintains my trust. Yep, one guy: Harris the journalist meticulously documents how widespread, intricate and untraceable was the robocall scheme. So the reader is left convinced Sona is a sacrificial lamb, part of a Conservative coverup. After all, he was a 22-year-old intern who didn’t even have access to the necessary data files to mount the robocall scheme. > **[An unflattering portrait of Stephen Harper's raw ambitions](https://www.timescolonist.com/archive/an-unflattering-portrait-of-stephen-harpers-raw-ambitions-4615921)** > > Party of One: Stephen Harper and Canada’s Radical Makeover By Michael Harris Viking, 544 pp., $33.95 This is a tough book. It’s tough on its subjects, Stephen Harper and his right-wing party. Oh, look, another guy … Harper’s former senior advisor **Bruce Carson** [goes on trial today for influence peddling](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-bruce-carson-trial-influence-peddling-1.3226547). That should keep us entertained until Harper Senate appointee **Mike Duffy** ’s trial resumes in November for spending violations – that would be the guy who was secretly paid off by former Harper chief of staff **Nigel Wright**. No word on whether Harper Senate appointee **Pamela Wallen** will be charged, though she was investigated by the RCMP for similar spending violations. However, Harper Senate appointee **Patrick Brazeau** has now been charged with one count of fraud under s. 380 of the Criminal Code of Canada and one of breach of trust by a public officer. His criminal trial starts in March, 2016. But the good news is that Harper’s former Parliamentary secretary **Dean Del Mastro** is now out of jail, where he was incarcerated for election fraud. He is now doing four months of house arrest. He got off a lot easier than Harper campaign minion **Michael Sona** , who got 9 months and a year of probation for what the court called “callous” election fraud. But we’re glad Harper’s party has your complete trust. I’m more on side with this: “Mr. Harper hasn’t been very good at choosing the kind of people who need to serve Canadians with integrity and ability.” – Justin Trudeau ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/316 "2015-09-14T16:43:54Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Robocalls: Again, it’s one guy. This is not the entire Conservative party. > > The party, as a whole, still maintains my trust. No, not “one guy” according to the judge who tried the case and had access to the evidence that was not hidden or denied to him: > [@](#): > > Judge Gary Hearn of Ontario Superior Court said he is “fully satisfied” Sona at least aided or abetted those involved in what has become known as the robocalls scandal, though he added he believes Sona had help from one or more people. > [@](#): > > “Although **the evidence indicates he did not likely act alone** , he was party to the offence and, as noted previously, there will be a finding of guilt registered.” But hey - as long as the evidence of who actually helped Sona to do this, and who accessed the database is hidden… You’re perfectly OK with that, eh? Right now, you’re simply sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la la la la, there was only one person” ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/317 "2015-09-14T17:46:58Z")
Should we talk about Liberal senator Mac Harb’s illegal expenses? ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/318 "2015-09-14T17:56:41Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Should we talk about Liberal senator Mac Harb’s illegal expenses? Go ahead. The difference is no one here denies it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/319 "2015-09-14T18:03:34Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Should we talk about Liberal senator Mac Harb’s illegal expenses? Sure. I believe he did a bad thing, and charged the senate expense when he should not have. He tried to play a little game of selling a portion of his house, and then changing the senate expense account to live in it. He’s going to go on trial. I hope he is convicted. Now I suggest you look up the meaning of “Tu quoque” Harb’s guilt does not absolve ANY SINGLE CONSERVATIVE from being guilty also. And just to remind you… The judge in the Robocalls case found that Sona did not act alone. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807/320 "2015-09-14T18:14:27Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Go ahead. The difference is no one here denies it. And I don’t deny Duffy or Wallin either. ETA: You guys are quick to pounce all over the Conservatives, but when shown similar information about the other parties you brush it off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longest-election-campaign-in-modern-canada-thread/726807.md?page=17)