# The longevity of Federer, Serena, Nadal and Djokovic **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 13, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014 "2019-07-13T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/1 "2019-07-13T13:09:03Z")
What is it about these special individuals that allows them to be the best in history AND the maintain these levels for the longest periods of time? Tennis has historically been a sport in which the loftiest of careers begin their downturn when a player reaches their mid- to late-20’s. These players are all well into their 30’s. Besides coincidence, the possibilities that come to my mind are: 1. Fitness, nutrition and medical science - the advances in these areas allow them to be more efficient with their bodies, cause less internal wear and tear, and facilitate faster recovery from injuries. This would make sense, but I would also consider that all the other players have access to these as well. 2. Watered down competition- perhaps tennis isn’t played as much by top athletes. And unfortunately, 1. Performance enhancing drugs- could these athletes have access to PED’s that are undetectable and unavailable to other players? Could the ATP and WTP be allowing these players to bypass testing? There’s certainly no evidence for either of these types of conspiracies, but the history of professional sports is filled with athletes trying to gain a chemical advantage. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/2 "2019-07-13T19:26:23Z")
Didn’t Serena once say that one of the things that keeps her from burning out on tour is having Venus around? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/3 "2019-07-13T19:33:00Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > Didn’t Serena once say that one of the things that keeps her from burning out on tour is having Venus around? One of the things that keeps Serena from burning out on tour is simply not being on tour. She plays very few competitions. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/4 "2019-07-13T22:24:39Z")
‘Racket technology’ has certainly come a long way. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/5 "2019-07-14T03:57:46Z")
Nadal, Federer and Djokovic are probably three of the top five players of the modern era, but at least some part of their longevity comes down to watered down competetion- none of the younger players now are star material- once these three retire, _someone_ will have to win every slam played, but I see no other current player that is going to finish with five or more slams- the mens game is going to soon be like the womens is now- any one of twenty or so players can win any slam, or just as easily lose in the first round. What player under 25 has done the best against the big 3? I think Kyrgios, who probably will be banned from the sport within two years. Mens ratings are going to plummet when they all retire, but since the current competition is so weak, that may be five or more years for each at least. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/6 "2019-07-14T10:41:35Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > Nadal, Federer and Djokovic are probably three of the top five players of the modern era, but at least some part of their longevity comes down to watered down competetion- none of the younger players now are star material Doesn’t that push it back a step? If you say _that_ none of the younger players are star material, then say _why_ none of the younger players are star material. The OP is, in effect, already asking why these three outclass the competition; you are, in effect, restating that by replying that the competition is outclassed by them. (Especially since, as you apparently grant that Nadal and Federer and Djokovic are probably Top Five if not Top Three, the whole thing gets even weirder. Consider, for example, Andy Murray, who built a Hall Of Fame career in the shadow of N/F/D: in between winning Olympic gold medals, he won multiple Grand Slam titles; you’d maybe expect him to get ranked #1 in the world, and, uh, he did. So — what? He’s not N/F/D tier, but the players you’re on about are a step down from _his_ tier?) (Wawrinka isn’t in the N/F/D tier either; but the guys you’re on about are a step down from _his_ tier, since he wins Grand Slam title after Grand Slam title after Grand Slam title in an N/F/D context and they don’t? _Why?_ Why aren’t they at least on that guy’s tier? Why aren’t they even second-stringers?) ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/7 "2019-07-14T16:12:28Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Doesn’t that push it back a step? If you say _that_ none of the younger players are star material, then say _why_ none of the younger players are star material. The OP is, in effect, already asking why these three outclass the competition; you are, in effect, restating that by replying that the competition is outclassed by them. > > (Especially since, as you apparently grant that Nadal and Federer and Djokovic are probably Top Five if not Top Three, the whole thing gets even weirder. Consider, for example, Andy Murray, who built a Hall Of Fame career in the shadow of N/F/D: in between winning Olympic gold medals, he won multiple Grand Slam titles; you’d maybe expect him to get ranked #1 in the world, and, uh, he did. So — what? He’s not N/F/D tier, but the players you’re on about are a step down from _his_ tier?) > > (Wawrinka isn’t in the N/F/D tier either; but the guys you’re on about are a step down from _his_ tier, since he wins Grand Slam title after Grand Slam title after Grand Slam title in an N/F/D context and they don’t? _Why?_ Why aren’t they at least on that guy’s tier? Why aren’t they even second-stringers?) The Op is an excellent question- what is going on now is unprecedented in the history of mens tennis- every previous decade saw between 12 and 20 different men win slams, in the 2010’s its SIX. My wag as to the reason- a combination of the three best ever possibly all in their peak simultaneously, coupled with no one else stepping up. A decade or so ago you at least had Roddick and Murray and a couple of others always getting close before losing to the big 3, now you dont even have that. Theim #4, clay specialist with two clay finals appearances only. Zverev #5, never gotten to a semi in a slam. Tsitsipas 6, only 20 but just lost in the first round at Wimbledon. 7 and 8 are age 30 journeymen with three finals appearances combined. Kyrgios, probably the best raw talent of any of the rest, is a flake. So IMO a bleak future for the mens game. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/8 "2019-07-14T16:18:13Z")
I think part of the explanation, at least for the lack of American competition, is that the best male American athletes are generally funneled into basketball, football, and a few other sports. Imagine if LeBron James had grown up playing tennis – with his height and athleticism, he could be utterly dominant. Drew Brees beat Andy Roddick as a kid – if he had stuck with tennis instead of football, he might also be an all time great. And many more. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/9 "2019-07-14T17:29:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Imagine if LeBron James had grown up playing tennis – with his height and athleticism, he could be utterly dominant. Really tall tennis players are a bit of a rarity. There’s a sweet spot between 1.80m and 1.90m for the bigger names. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/10 "2019-07-14T17:30:46Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Really tall tennis players are a bit of a rarity. There’s a sweet spot between 1.80m and 1.90m for the bigger names. Right… but LeBron James is almost superhumanly athletically talented. He could have John Isner’s serve but move around like Nadal (or close). At least, that’s my hypothesis. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/11 "2019-07-14T17:41:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think part of the explanation, at least for the lack of American competition, is that the best male American athletes are generally funneled into basketball, football, and a few other sports. That could well be part of it. Tennis’s heyday as a spectator sport (and, its peak from a participation standpoint) in the U.S. was the 1970s, and into the 1980s. If young athletes aren’t being exposed to tennis the way they used to be, and aren’t seeing tennis as an attractive sport to compete in, fewer will pursue it. BTW, [here’s the current men’s rankings](http://www.espn.com/tennis/rankings) – there are only three American men in the top 50, and only one of them is in the top 30. Edit: it’s a little less dire for the U.S. on[the women’s side](http://www.espn.com/tennis/rankings/_/type/2), where six Americans are in the top 50, and three in the top 20…but two of the six are the Williams sisters, whose days are limited. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/12 "2019-07-14T20:23:16Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > Nadal, Federer and Djokovic are probably three of the top five players of the modern era, but at least some part of their longevity comes down to watered down competetion- none of the younger players now are star material- once these three retire, _someone_ will have to win every slam played, but I see no other current player that is going to finish with five or more slams- the mens game is going to soon be like the womens is now- any one of twenty or so players can win any slam, or just as easily lose in the first round. What player under 25 has done the best against the big 3? I think Kyrgios, who probably will be banned from the sport within two years. Mens ratings are going to plummet when they all retire, but since the current competition is so weak, that may be five or more years for each at least. If they ban Kyrgios I will never watch tennis again. He’s awesome! Well…when he decides to show up and try. And/or not get ejected from matches…besides those two small things though… ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/13 "2019-07-15T01:10:43Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > If they ban Kyrgios I will never watch tennis again. He’s awesome! Well…when he decides to show up and try. And/or not get ejected from matches…besides those two small things though… Agree, he is must watch :), and the sport seems to not too much mind his antics because right now its always mainly in a early round match or small tourney where he really acts the ass. the banning is going to come when he gets to a Wimbledon final, millions watching, and blatantly quits trying. But yes, when he’s on, probably the best player on the tour besides the big three,and does really well against two of them head to head. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/14 "2019-07-15T12:03:18Z")
A lot of elite performance is in the mind, and there’s a part of F/N/D/W’s success that is self-sustaining. When you, a supremely talented 20-something at peak physical fitness walk on court to face, say, Djokovic, you’re not just playing Djokovic, you’re playing _ **Djokovic** _. The guy who’s been winning Grand Slams since you were crying over losing an under-8s match. The player you dreamed of being. The legend. Sure, you’ve got a plan for beating him, you’ve got some notes about when to hit drop shots but as you walk on court you know it’s a long shot. You’re half-expecting to lose. I recently saw an old interview with Andy Murray, right back when he was a teenager at his first Wimbledon and hadn’t had media training. It went something like: Interviewer: “So, Andy, welcome to your first Wimbledon. How far are you hoping you’ll get through the tournament?” Andy Murray: “All the way.” Itnerviewer, slightly incredulously: “You’re hoping to \*win \*Wimbledon on your first ever visit?” Andy Murray, future world No. 1:“Didn’t come here for any other reason.” That’s the mentality. And yes, at that point there weren’t quite a Big Three, and certainly not like there are now. But if Zverev, Tsipras etc. aren’t coming to the the Majors thinking, “This is my tournament, this is my time, get out of my way you old men” then they’re playing on one leg. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/15 "2019-07-15T12:15:58Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Interviewer: “So, Andy, welcome to your first Wimbledon. How far are you hoping you’ll get through the tournament?” > Andy Murray: “All the way.” > Itnerviewer, slightly incredulously: “You’re hoping to \*win \*Wimbledon on your first ever visit?” > Andy Murray, future world No. 1:“Didn’t come here for any other reason.” > > That’s the mentality. And yes, at that point there weren’t quite a Big Three, and certainly not like there are now. But if Zverev, Tsipras etc. aren’t coming to the the Majors thinking, “This is my tournament, this is my time, get out of my way you old men” then they’re playing on one leg. Coco Gauff, the 15-year-old who knocked Venus Williams out of Wimbledon this year and made it through to the fourth round, said much the same thing. If you’re not playing to win, why turn up at all? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/16 "2019-07-15T12:31:33Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Coco Gauff, the 15-year-old who knocked Venus Williams out of Wimbledon this year and made it through to the fourth round, said much the same thing. If you’re not playing to win, why turn up at all? Yes, and that attitude brings with it a focus on you and your game, not the opponent and how amazing they are: [this](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/48977251)is very interesting from Simona Halep, on the back of her crushing of Serena Williams: > [@](#): > > “The nerves were positive this time. I felt them in the stomach,” she said. "I always play well when I have emotions. > > "I didn’t think at all against who I play. _I’ve always been intimidated a little bit when I faced Serena."_ > > … > "_I decided before the match that I’m going to focus on myself and on the final of Grand Slam, not on her,…"That’s why I was able to play my best_, to be relaxed, and to be able to be positive and confident against her. > > “I’m very sure that was the best match of my life.” (Italics mine) Basically, what I’m saying is that beating tennis’s GOATs is easy, and I am wiser and better than all those physically more gifted athletes who don’t have my entirely undemonstrated psychological fortitude. ---
**Author:** ![Dahu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahu/32/3416_2.png) [@Dahu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/17 "2019-07-15T12:41:20Z")
This is Krygios’ entertaining press conference following his defeat to Nadal at Wimbledon - > **[Watch all the best bits from Kyrgios' explosive news conference](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/tennis/48884075)** > > Watch the best bits from Nick Kyrgios' entertaining news conference, after his second-round defeat by Rafael Nadal. The guy’s box-office but he hasn’t gone past the 4th round in a slam in his last 16 attempts, it’s hard to see him winning one. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/18 "2019-07-15T12:41:43Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > The Op is an excellent question- what is going on now is unprecedented in the history of mens tennis- every previous decade saw between 12 and 20 different men win slams, in the 2010’s its SIX. > > My wag as to the reason- a combination of the three best ever possibly all in their peak simultaneously, coupled with no one else stepping up. A decade or so ago you at least had Roddick and Murray and a couple of others always getting close before losing to the big 3, now you dont even have that. > > Theim #4, clay specialist with two clay finals appearances only. Zverev #5, never gotten to a semi in a slam. Tsitsipas 6, only 20 but just lost in the first round at Wimbledon. 7 and 8 are age 30 journeymen with three finals appearances combined. Kyrgios, probably the best raw talent of any of the rest, is a flake. So IMO a bleak future for the mens game. I wonder, as someone who doesn’t really follow tennis much, Is part of it that not only are there randomly three of the best ever all active at the same time (and have mostly avoided injury), but also one of those three happens to be the absolute best-ever clay-court player, so there’s no chance for a clay-court specialist to sneak in a few wins in France and elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/19 "2019-07-15T13:35:46Z")
Possibly, and I’m not a tennis expert either, but you could probably make the argument that Djokovic and Federer are the second and third best clay court players ever, so absent Nadal they would have picked up most of his French Open wins between them. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014/20 "2019-07-15T16:36:24Z")
Yeah, the dominance of the Big Three isn’t so much that one of them always wins, it’s that two of them are in the final, and likely three of them in the semis. From [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Grand_Slam_singles_finals), the first Big Three Grand Slam final was the 2006 French Open between Nadal and Federer. Since then there have been 54 Grand Slam finals, featuring 18 individual players. 25 featured Djokovic; 25 Nadal; 24 Federer. 22 featured two of the three. Only two have featured none of them\* Of the remaining 15 players in these finals, Murray has been in 11. This puts him in a tier of his own: Wawrinka has been in 4, Cilic in 3, five others in 2 and six others in only 1. Of French Open finals not featuring Nadal, the results were Federer beat Soderling, Djokovic beat Murray and Wawrinka beat Djokovic. Further to the psychological arguments made above, I suspect that there’s only so long you can keep entering Grand Slams and finding you are just making up the numbers before you get worn down. I mean, imagine how unbelievably good at tennis Bedych or Tsonga are, for example. They are amazingly, incredibly good. They grew up leaving others in their wake, and dedicating their lives to achieving excellence. And the reward for that is regular quarter finals, semis if they’re lucky, losing in a final if they’re playing out their skins. How thoroughly must it grind your soul? \*Murray/Raonic in Wimbledon 2016, Cilic/Nishikori in US Open 2014, pub quiz fans. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-longevity-of-federer-serena-nadal-and-djokovic/837014.md?page=2)