# The looming crisis in human genetics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2009, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571 "2009-12-01T09:22:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/181 "2009-12-14T22:01:49Z")
It’s no evidence at all for a genetic component. The author of this article is using one statistically meaningless data point to extropolate a baseless, and inflammatory hypothesis, and then accusing anyone who doesn’t go along with his baseless (and let’s face it, moronic and racist) hypothesis as being “afraid of the truth.” I shouldn’t even give the OP this much of a response since it’s extremely bad form to do nothing but post a link to an inflammatory article, then run away without posting any further commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/182 "2009-12-14T22:21:24Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It does not have to be genetic. The question on the table (I think) is whether or not the possibility it is genetic is allowed to be on the table… Because it’s a claim with no good evidence for it. One that has a long history of fraud and malice behind it, and is therefore the kind of claim that needs a great deal of evidence to be taken seriously. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > What is the reason you doubt the crime comment made? Because it amounts to the claim that black people in London are some kind of demonic horde. How much crime would they have to commit to be the majority cause in London? Would they have time to sleep? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/183 "2009-12-14T22:25:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ah, yet another attempt to pretend that black people are genetically evil. Ignore their poverty, ignore their history; ignore the fact that after centuries of interbreeding they are hardly all that distinct as a gene pool. It _ **has** _ to be genetic. It makes me wonder if whites are predisposed genetically towards group violence. In the United States it has been predominantly whites that have engaged in mob violence against blacks, Mexicans, Italians, the Chinese, and even other whites since colonial days. What is it about white people that makes them prone to grouping up to do a little murder and mutilation? Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/184 "2009-12-14T22:35:57Z")
> [@](#): > > What is it about white people that makes them prone to grouping up to do a little murder and mutilation? Probably the same evolutionary forces that lead to violence in most places. Violence has actually declined though in the West. Have you read Steven Pinker’s article ‘A History of Violence’? > [@](#): > > Yet, despite these caveats, a picture is taking shape. The decline of violence is a fractal phenomenon, visible at the scale of millennia, centuries, decades, and years. It applies over several orders of magnitude of violence, from genocide to war to rioting to homicide to the treatment of children and animals. And it appears to be a worldwide trend, though not a homogeneous one. The leading edge has been in Western societies, especially England and Holland, and there seems to have been a tipping point at the onset of the Age of Reason in the early seventeenth century. > > At the widest-angle view, one can see a whopping difference across the millennia that separate us from our pre-state ancestors. Contra leftist anthropologists who celebrate the noble savage, quantitative body-counts—such as the proportion of prehistoric skeletons with axemarks and embedded arrowheads or the proportion of men in a contemporary foraging tribe who die at the hands of other men—suggest that pre-state societies were far more violent than our own. It is true that raids and battles killed a tiny percentage of the numbers that die in modern warfare. But, in tribal violence, the clashes are more frequent, the percentage of men in the population who fight is greater, and the rates of death per battle are higher. According to anthropologists like Lawrence Keeley, Stephen LeBlanc, Phillip Walker, and Bruce Knauft, these factors combine to yield population-wide rates of death in tribal warfare that dwarf those of modern times. If the wars of the twentieth century had killed the same proportion of the population that die in the wars of a typical tribal society, there would have been two billion deaths, not 100 million. > > Political correctness from the other end of the ideological spectrum has also distorted many people’s conception of violence in early civilizations—namely, those featured in the Bible. This supposed source of moral values contains many celebrations of genocide, in which the Hebrews, egged on by God, slaughter every last resident of an invaded city. The Bible also prescribes death by stoning as the penalty for a long list of nonviolent infractions, including idolatry, blasphemy, homosexuality, adultery, disrespecting one’s parents, and picking up sticks on the Sabbath. The Hebrews, of course, were no more murderous than other tribes; one also finds frequent boasts of torture and genocide in the early histories of the Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Chinese. > > At the century scale, it is hard to find quantitative studies of deaths in warfare spanning medieval and modern times. Several historians have suggested that there has been an increase in the number of recorded wars across the centuries to the present, but, as political scientist James Payne has noted, this may show only that “the Associated Press is a more comprehensive source of information about battles around the world than were sixteenth-century monks.” Social histories of the West provide evidence of numerous barbaric practices that became obsolete in the last five centuries, such as slavery, amputation, blinding, branding, flaying, disembowelment, burning at the stake, breaking on the wheel, and so on. Meanwhile, for another kind of violence—homicide—the data are abundant and striking. The criminologist Manuel Eisner has assembled hundreds of homicide estimates from Western European localities that kept records at some point between 1200 and the mid-1990s. In every country he analyzed, murder rates declined steeply—for example, from 24 homicides per 100,000 Englishmen in the fourteenth century to 0.6 per 100,000 by the early 1960s. > **[Edge: A HISTORY OF VIOLENCE By Steven Pinker](https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/185 "2009-12-14T22:40:27Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Probably the same evolutionary forces that lead to violence in most places. You really missed the point, didn’t you? That was an example of mockery; applying the same logic used to claim that blacks are genetically criminal to white people. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/186 "2009-12-14T22:48:52Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > _ignore this post_ [QUOTE=Freudian Slit] Nevermind… [/QUOTE] Nothing…forget it. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/187 "2009-12-14T22:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > You really missed the point, didn’t you? That was an example of mockery; applying the same logic used to claim that blacks are genetically criminal to white people. Der Trihs, Thanks, I realise that. I find it more effective to treat those posts literally. As for the logic, gene variants of MAO-A linked to crime, or testosterone levels, do vary across populations. You don’t need to infer that from crime stats. Although, as that article suggests the genetic understanding of crime is in the early stage. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/188 "2009-12-14T22:57:52Z")
> [@from the OP](#): > > Vitriol, if not bodily torture, awaited the columnist Rod Liddle who wrote on a blog for The Spectator this week: “The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community.”.. I’d be willing to bet that most cases of embezzlement, tax fraud, and so-called “white collar” crimes in the UK are committed by older men from the European community. What does that say about genetics? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/189 "2009-12-14T23:01:38Z")
**Chen019** , I don’t see a difference between the subject of your new thread (“Stop shooting the messenger”) and your previous one. So I have merged them together. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/190 "2009-12-14T23:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d be willing to bet that most cases of embezzlement, tax fraud, and so-called “white collar” crimes in the UK are committed by older men from the European community. What does that say about genetics? I don’t know, it doesn’t mean that gene variants of MAO-A or testosterone aren’t linked to violence. > [@](#): > > The MAOA gene affects levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine and serotonin that are related to mood and behavior, and those variants that are related to violence are hereditary. Some previous studies have found the “warrior gene” to be more prevalent in cultures that are typified by warfare and aggression. > > “What’s interesting about the MAOA gene is its location on the X-chromosome,” Beaver said. “As a result, males, who have one X-chromosome and one Y-chromosome, possess only one copy of this gene, while females, who have two X-chromosomes, carry two. Thus, if a male has an allele (variant) for the MAOA gene that is linked to violence, there isn’t another copy to counteract it. Females, in contrast, have two copies, so even if they have one risk allele, they have another that could compensate for it. That’s why most MAOA research has focused on males, and probably why the MAOA effect has, for the most part, only been detected in males.” > **['Warrior Gene' Linked To Gang Membership, Weapon Use](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090605123237.htm)** > > Boys who carry a particular variation of the gene Monoamine oxidase A (MAOA), sometimes called the "warrior gene," are more likely not only to join gangs but also to be among the most violent members and to use weapons, according to a new study that... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/191 "2009-12-15T00:22:24Z")
> [@Chief Pedant](#): > > On the “Jews-used-to-own-the-NBA-and-now-the-blacks-do” front, I offer an observation that this is just the sort of thing I’m talking about when I talk about grasping at straws. Nope, it’s spot on as a refutation of your arguments. The NBA used to be all white and mostly Jewish. Nowadays, the white players in the NBA are mostly non-Jewish (in fact, I think there are fewer than 40 Jewish NBA players overall). So, what happened to the Jewish basketball genes? Even if we accept your hypothesis that black basketball genes are superior to white basketball genes in general, why did Jews suddenly lose their basketball-gene superiority even in comparison to other whites? Until you can give a plausible genetics-based answer to this question, you don’t have a very firm foundation for arguing that the superior performance of blacks over whites in basketball must also be primarily genetics-based. > [@Chief Pedant](#): > > If we simply accept that mother nature does not create any two individuals genetically identical, and that gene distribution for various traits can vary among different populations, we can build sound policies that stand the test of time and achieve our goals–diversity, for instance. This is a disingenuous oversimplification of a very complex issue. Yes, it’s true that no two individuals are genetically identical. Yes, it’s true that certain genes are distributed differently among different genetic populations. But not all ethnic or racial groupings correspond to genetic populations, and not all characteristics have a well-understood genetic basis. So we don’t have a reliable genetic rationale for formulating policy to deal with such characteristics. When we understand exactly what the genetic basis of intelligence (or athletic ability or artistic ability or any other quality we’re trying to analyze) is, and exactly what the genetic make-up of a particular population or ethnic group or individual is, then we can feel confident about building “sound policies that stand the test of time” about the societal implications of genetics. But we’re a long way from that point. Claiming that all we need in order to formulate sound policy on these extremely complex issues is simply to recognize two basic uncontroversial biological facts is mere feel-good bullshit. We have a **lot** more work ahead of us before we can even dream of getting to the stage of formulating sound social policies based on genetic identity. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/192 "2009-12-15T00:52:36Z")
Can we all just agree that whatever the data shows, we should still try our best to make things equal for all groups? My concern here isn’t that group A is genetically superior to group B, its the argument that superiority justifies bad treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/193 "2009-12-15T01:03:16Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Can we all just agree that whatever the data shows, we should still try our best to make things equal for all groups? If by “things” you mean “educational and career opportunities”, then sure, I don’t think anybody here would argue against that. However, that isn’t the point of this debate (or of either of the two similar but separate debates that were merged to form this thread). The main debate here seems to be “What can be scientifically determined at present (or will be determined very soon) about the genetic basis of complex traits such as intelligence, criminal tendency, athletic ability, etc., in broadly defined racial/ethnic groups with very diverse genetic backgrounds? And if there are in fact major scientific breakthroughs at hand on these issues, what will be their societal consequences?” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/194 "2009-12-15T01:24:47Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Can we all just agree that whatever the data shows, we should still try our best to make things equal for all groups? > > My concern here isn’t that group A is genetically superior to group B, its the argument that superiority justifies bad treatment. I think we should stop thinking in terms of groups personally. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/195 "2009-12-15T04:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > YogSosoth > > Can we all just agree that whatever the data shows, we should still try our best to make things equal for all groups? > > My concern here isn’t that group A is genetically superior to group B, its the argument that superiority justifies bad treatment. I think you have to distinguish between equal opportunities and equal outcomes. If you are going to enforce equal outcomes then you will have to discriminate against individuals because they belong to an overrepresented group - ie. the ‘Jewish quotas’ that some Ivy League Colleges had in the 1920’s. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/196 "2009-12-15T05:58:42Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > This is not about some sort of contest for superior races, however my opponents wish to push it there. It’s about how we go about creating a just society with equal opportunity to participate for all. . Okay, but could you give me a concrete example of social engineering bused on genetic findings to provide equal opportunity? I’m thinking that the only way a white man will ever have the opportunity to win a gold medal in the 100 meters is if whites have their own Olympics, just like women have today. Would that be part of a just society? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/197 "2009-12-15T06:54:52Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > I’m thinking that the only way a white man will ever have the opportunity to win a gold medal in the 100 meters is if whites have their own Olympics, just like women have today. You must mean “the only way a white man will ever **again** have the opportunity”. After all, lots of white men have won gold medals for the 100 meters, most recently Alan Wells in 1980. I also kind of wonder if this timeframe is long enough to make categorical predictions about absolute genetic determinism. For instance, Jeremy Wariner isn’t black and he’s won gold (and other) medals in the 400m race; are we really willing to state uncompromisingly that it’s impossible for any non-black runner to do the same in the 100m ever again? I think we should definitely study genetic differences in physiology in different populations and consider the contribution they make to different outcomes in sports events. But I think a lot of people are being **way** too hasty and sloppy in assuming, based on the very incomplete data currently available, that **any** trend of dominance by black athletes must be due primarily to genetic advantages. That’s the sort of reasoning that led commentators a few decades ago to jump to the conclusion that Jews must just be more naturally gifted at playing basketball than other white people. ---
**Author:** ![Cullain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d26b3c/32.png) [@Cullain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cullain)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/198 "2009-12-15T08:31:14Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > the performance of white basketball players who have had every possible development advantage since birth is still substantially sub-par–on average–to the relatively disadvantaged black player. disadvantaged black player? You realize that most NBA players are not just black, but grew up in a few specific cities, right? And that the level of competition in those playground games would be higher then most white player would be able to find? And that this is a competitive advantage for these players as they get older? Black players disproportionately play in the NBA because they disproportionately grow up in an environment that allows them to succeed at basketball. ---
**Author:** ![lurking\_guest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/199 "2009-12-15T09:26:10Z")
Oh, fer Cris sake… Black men are better at sports (generally) Women are better at nurturing (gnerally) Latin men are better at romancing (generally) White men are better at financial corruption (generally) Sociopaths are better at screwing everyone (generally) Right now. In this day. In this age. Take off “points” for slavery. Take off “points” for sexism. Take off points for any “Culture” dedicated to various and relevant “points” of relevance. Capitalism. Socialism. Communism. Democracy. Male/Female. Pick anything. Insert one into another. (Ha Ha) QUIT going for the BIG COMPETITION. And pitting one against another. On THIS friggin’ board… (Presumably)… We’re all 'One With Another." Right? We NEED. One another. We COMPLIMENT one another. World Wide. This should be no “Big Shit” revelation. Quit the Goddamn competition and Love our differences. Our strengths and weaknesses, and combine them - Goddamit - to make the best world we can for our children. Jesus Christ. THINK of the IQs!! The strenths of mind! The dedication! The educations! The purpose! What the hell? What PREVENTS us from coming together? Your call. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571/200 "2009-12-15T09:26:21Z")
> [@Cullain](#): > > Black players disproportionately play in the NBA because they disproportionately grow up in an environment that allows them to succeed at basketball. At least, it’s fair to say that there’s nothing now conclusively known about genetics and race that disproves this sensible and reasonable hypothesis. That doesn’t make it automatically true, nor does it mean that we shouldn’t continue to study genetics and race, but it does mean that jumping to conclusions like “Blacks dominate the NBA primarily because they have superior basketball genes” is pointless and indefensible. We may like to believe (for whatever reason) that blacks have especially good basketball genes compared to whites, just as many people a couple generations ago readily believed that Jews had especially good basketball genes compared to other whites. Or we may just think that the basketball-genes hypothesis in general is a promising line of research that ought to be followed up. But the data at present just don’t support treating such speculations as fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-looming-crisis-in-human-genetics/519571.md?page=11)