The looming crisis in human genetics

It’s no evidence at all for a genetic component. The author of this article is using one statistically meaningless data point to extropolate a baseless, and inflammatory hypothesis, and then accusing anyone who doesn’t go along with his baseless (and let’s face it, moronic and racist) hypothesis as being “afraid of the truth.”

I shouldn’t even give the OP this much of a response since it’s extremely bad form to do nothing but post a link to an inflammatory article, then run away without posting any further commentary.

Because it’s a claim with no good evidence for it. One that has a long history of fraud and malice behind it, and is therefore the kind of claim that needs a great deal of evidence to be taken seriously.

Because it amounts to the claim that black people in London are some kind of demonic horde. How much crime would they have to commit to be the majority cause in London? Would they have time to sleep?

It makes me wonder if whites are predisposed genetically towards group violence. In the United States it has been predominantly whites that have engaged in mob violence against blacks, Mexicans, Italians, the Chinese, and even other whites since colonial days. What is it about white people that makes them prone to grouping up to do a little murder and mutilation?

Odesio

Probably the same evolutionary forces that lead to violence in most places. Violence has actually declined though in the West. Have you read Steven Pinker’s article ‘A History of Violence’?

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html

You really missed the point, didn’t you? That was an example of mockery; applying the same logic used to claim that blacks are genetically criminal to white people.

Nothing…forget it.

Der Trihs,

Thanks, I realise that. I find it more effective to treat those posts literally.

As for the logic, gene variants of MAO-A linked to crime, or testosterone levels, do vary across populations. You don’t need to infer that from crime stats. Although, as that article suggests the genetic understanding of crime is in the early stage.

I’d be willing to bet that most cases of embezzlement, tax fraud, and so-called “white collar” crimes in the UK are committed by older men from the European community. What does that say about genetics? :dubious:

Chen019, I don’t see a difference between the subject of your new thread (“Stop shooting the messenger”) and your previous one. So I have merged them together.

I don’t know, it doesn’t mean that gene variants of MAO-A or testosterone aren’t linked to violence.

Nope, it’s spot on as a refutation of your arguments. The NBA used to be all white and mostly Jewish. Nowadays, the white players in the NBA are mostly non-Jewish (in fact, I think there are fewer than 40 Jewish NBA players overall).

So, what happened to the Jewish basketball genes? Even if we accept your hypothesis that black basketball genes are superior to white basketball genes in general, why did Jews suddenly lose their basketball-gene superiority even in comparison to other whites?

Until you can give a plausible genetics-based answer to this question, you don’t have a very firm foundation for arguing that the superior performance of blacks over whites in basketball must also be primarily genetics-based.

This is a disingenuous oversimplification of a very complex issue. Yes, it’s true that no two individuals are genetically identical. Yes, it’s true that certain genes are distributed differently among different genetic populations.

But not all ethnic or racial groupings correspond to genetic populations, and not all characteristics have a well-understood genetic basis. So we don’t have a reliable genetic rationale for formulating policy to deal with such characteristics.

When we understand exactly what the genetic basis of intelligence (or athletic ability or artistic ability or any other quality we’re trying to analyze) is, and exactly what the genetic make-up of a particular population or ethnic group or individual is, then we can feel confident about building “sound policies that stand the test of time” about the societal implications of genetics.

But we’re a long way from that point. Claiming that all we need in order to formulate sound policy on these extremely complex issues is simply to recognize two basic uncontroversial biological facts is mere feel-good bullshit. We have a lot more work ahead of us before we can even dream of getting to the stage of formulating sound social policies based on genetic identity.

Can we all just agree that whatever the data shows, we should still try our best to make things equal for all groups?

My concern here isn’t that group A is genetically superior to group B, its the argument that superiority justifies bad treatment.

If by “things” you mean “educational and career opportunities”, then sure, I don’t think anybody here would argue against that.

However, that isn’t the point of this debate (or of either of the two similar but separate debates that were merged to form this thread).

The main debate here seems to be “What can be scientifically determined at present (or will be determined very soon) about the genetic basis of complex traits such as intelligence, criminal tendency, athletic ability, etc., in broadly defined racial/ethnic groups with very diverse genetic backgrounds? And if there are in fact major scientific breakthroughs at hand on these issues, what will be their societal consequences?”

I think we should stop thinking in terms of groups personally.

I think you have to distinguish between equal opportunities and equal outcomes. If you are going to enforce equal outcomes then you will have to discriminate against individuals because they belong to an overrepresented group - ie. the ‘Jewish quotas’ that some Ivy League Colleges had in the 1920’s.

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Okay, but could you give me a concrete example of social engineering bused on genetic findings to provide equal opportunity?

I’m thinking that the only way a white man will ever have the opportunity to win a gold medal in the 100 meters is if whites have their own Olympics, just like women have today. Would that be part of a just society?

You must mean “the only way a white man will ever again have the opportunity”. After all, lots of white men have won gold medals for the 100 meters, most recently Alan Wells in 1980.

I also kind of wonder if this timeframe is long enough to make categorical predictions about absolute genetic determinism. For instance, Jeremy Wariner isn’t black and he’s won gold (and other) medals in the 400m race; are we really willing to state uncompromisingly that it’s impossible for any non-black runner to do the same in the 100m ever again?

I think we should definitely study genetic differences in physiology in different populations and consider the contribution they make to different outcomes in sports events. But I think a lot of people are being way too hasty and sloppy in assuming, based on the very incomplete data currently available, that any trend of dominance by black athletes must be due primarily to genetic advantages.

That’s the sort of reasoning that led commentators a few decades ago to jump to the conclusion that Jews must just be more naturally gifted at playing basketball than other white people.

disadvantaged black player? You realize that most NBA players are not just black, but grew up in a few specific cities, right? And that the level of competition in those playground games would be higher then most white player would be able to find? And that this is a competitive advantage for these players as they get older?

Black players disproportionately play in the NBA because they disproportionately grow up in an environment that allows them to succeed at basketball.

Oh, fer Cris sake…

Black men are better at sports (generally)

Women are better at nurturing (gnerally)

Latin men are better at romancing (generally)

White men are better at financial corruption (generally)

Sociopaths are better at screwing everyone (generally)

Right now.

In this day. In this age.

Take off “points” for slavery.

Take off “points” for sexism.

Take off points for any “Culture” dedicated to various and relevant “points” of relevance.

Capitalism. Socialism. Communism. Democracy.

Male/Female.

Pick anything.
Insert one into another. (Ha Ha)

QUIT going for the BIG COMPETITION. And pitting one against another.

On THIS friggin’ board…

(Presumably)…

We’re all 'One With Another." Right?

We NEED. One another.

We COMPLIMENT one another.

World Wide.

This should be no “Big Shit” revelation.

Quit the Goddamn competition and Love our differences. Our strengths and weaknesses, and combine them - Goddamit - to make the best world we can for our children.

Jesus Christ.

THINK of the IQs!! The strenths of mind! The dedication! The educations! The purpose!

What the hell?

What PREVENTS us from coming together?

Your call.

At least, it’s fair to say that there’s nothing now conclusively known about genetics and race that disproves this sensible and reasonable hypothesis.

That doesn’t make it automatically true, nor does it mean that we shouldn’t continue to study genetics and race, but it does mean that jumping to conclusions like “Blacks dominate the NBA primarily because they have superior basketball genes” is pointless and indefensible.

We may like to believe (for whatever reason) that blacks have especially good basketball genes compared to whites, just as many people a couple generations ago readily believed that Jews had especially good basketball genes compared to other whites. Or we may just think that the basketball-genes hypothesis in general is a promising line of research that ought to be followed up. But the data at present just don’t support treating such speculations as fact.