The looming crisis in human genetics

Great Debates
221

Kimstu,

Can you provide a citation for this? The idea that Jews tested poorly is actually based on a misrepresentation of a paper authored by Henry Goddard in 1917.

Goddard gave IQ tests to people suspected of being mentally handicapped. He found the tests identified a number of such people from various immigrant groups, including Ashkenazi Jews. Leon Kamin in 1974 reported that Goddard had found Jews had low IQ scores. However, Goddard never found that Jews or other groups as a general population had low scores. There is other information that contradicts the idea that Jews did poorly on IQ tests around this time.

see G. Cochran, J. Hardy, H. Harpending, Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence, Journal of Biosocial Science 38 (5), pp. 659-693 (2006).

http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf

The idea that a better moral framework is needed is made by Lahn & Ebenstein recently in Nature.

There is no strong evidence yet for specific gene variants (alleles) that lead to group differences (differences between clusters) in behavior or intelligence, but progress on the genomic side of this question will be rapid in coming years, as the price to sequence a genome is dropping at an exponential rate.

What seems to be true (from preliminary studies) is that the gene variants that were under strong selection (reached fixation) over the last 10k years are different in different clusters. That is, the way that modern people in each cluster differ, due to natural selection, from their own ancestors 10k years ago is not the same in each cluster – we have been, at least at the genetic level, experiencing divergent evolution.

In fact, recent research suggests that 7% or more of all our genes are mutant versions that replaced earlier variants through natural selection over the last tens of thousands of years. There was little gene flow between continental clusters (“races”) during that period, so there is circumstantial evidence for group differences beyond the already established ones (superficial appearance, disease resistance).

For example, you see new versions of SLC6A4, a serotonin transporter, in Europeans and Asians. There’s a new version of a gene (DBA1) that shapes the development of the layers of the cerebral cortex in east Asia.**

In a similar vein, this paper by Pickrell et al of Univ of Chicago, this article finds that “populations in the same continental region” (ie. major races) have undergone selection for differences in various genes including the neuregulin (NRG) gene that controls development and function of neurons.

Genome Res. 2009 May;19(5):826-37. Epub 2009 Mar 23.

Signals of recent positive selection in a worldwide sample of human populations.
Pickrell JK, Coop G, Novembre J, Kudaravalli S, Li JZ, Absher D, Srinivasan BS, Barsh GS, Myers RM, Feldman MW, Pritchard JK.

**http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0040072&ct=1

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030090

222

Kimstu,

Also, note that research on sensitive areas isn’t that easy to get funding for. Consider the criteria for an NSF research grant.

223

Why do the Russians - indisputably white, cold adapted, northern Europeans, have such a high murder rate? Their murder rate is as high as the currently astronomically high black American murder rate. I note currently because the black American murder rate has at times been lower than the white American murder rate.

Why hasn’t Russia turned into Finland? Or even the former East Germany? Or South Korea? If we accept the standard explanations - perfectly reasonable ones, in my view - history, culture, the damage done to people who lived for generations under a totalitarian police state - then we have to accept similar explanations for the same problems in other populations.

Or accept that the Russians, and perhaps northern Europeans are inherently prone to drunkeness and criminal violence. (If you compared Northern Europe to the civilized world during the time of the Romans Empire, you’d be hard pressed not to draw that conclusion.) These things can and do change. If it was all fixed in the genes, we wouldn’t see the regular transition of peoples thought incapable of civilization into empire builders, and then back again into people thought incapable of civilization. :wink:

224

But mean height among African-American males is not significantly taller than that of their American white counterparts, so why are you saying this so matter-of-factly?

Truth be told, black men are actually shorter than white men (not signficantly, though), which is a point that I raised and supported in a previous thread.

225

Do you have a cite showing that blacks have more fast twitch muscles than whites? Because what you’ve written here is no more compelling than saying 1)height is an advantage in basketball, 2) top-level black players are tall, and 3) and “rigorous testing” through NBA games have consistently proven that the best b-ball players are black. Which is an argument that caves in on itself when its shown that blacks as a group are not taller than whites, not even at the highest percentiles.*

*see Table 12

226

What evolutionary pressures made homosexuality genetic? You mean to say you’re willing to accept genetics and/or biological factors as an explanation for homosexuality, but not for behaviorial differences between races?

227

Because homosexuality is real, and race isn’t?

For obvious reasons, few people believe that homosexuality is a directly inherited trait. Most people believe it is deeply affected by prenatal hormone exposure.

In any case, Africa has the greatest genetic diversity in the world- especially along the Nigeria/Cameroon border, which also happened to be a major source for the trans-Atlantic slave trade. In Cameroon, I lived one hour west of an ethnic group where most people were under five feet tall and had fairly light skin. I lived one hour east of a tribe where nearly all men were five feet tall and were extremely dark skinned. The local tribes were so different that I could often tell what tribe someone was from just by looking at them- and Cameroon alone had 250 such tribes. Lumping these guys together would be like lumping together a Hmong dude and an Estonian chick because the both live on Eurasia.

I highly doubt the one thing this hugely diverse human population shared (besides skin we’d judge as black- many in Cameroon would be categorize each other differently) is mad basketball skills.

228

I can’t find a cite yet, but it’s always been my understanding that black vary more in height. And “mean height” is meaningless for a question like this; we aren’t dealing with average people, we are dealing with the extremes.

229

I cited this earlier; find table 12 and you’ll see that the distribution of heights between black and white men between the ages of 20 and 39 differ no more than a few tenths of a centimeter across all percentiles. Based on the standard errors, these differences are statistically negligible, but a quick skim suggests that if anything, white males are taller than black males.

Long story short, it would be a waste of time looking for a cite to support your assertion.

230

I meant a few tenths of an inch.

231

If you want to believe that there are more blacks interested in a professional career in the NBA as their primary choice among all careers than there are whites who would play in the NBA if it were attainable for them, I am not going to bother to try and dissuade you.

I observe that there is a difference between a sport such as basketball with a possible career, high salary, and fame and a sport such as wrestling where the participation driver is cultural. But perhaps I am totally confused, and all those white kids playing basketball gravitate to other sports because they are just not attracted to an NBA dream…

232

Well consider the strong possibility that they aren’t as attracted to the NBA vocation as black kids because they are more likely to envision themselves as lawyers, physicians, and IT professionals.

Is this really that hard to believe?

233

Yes, because those fields tend to require an iq of say, 115 or above. That’s one standard deviation above the population average so about 16% of whites are realistically going to be able to go into those roles. If the African american group average is 1 stdv below the euro average, then about 2.5 percent of that group will be above 115.

Gottfredson, L. S. (2000). Skills gaps, not tests, make racial proportionality impossible. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, 6(1), 129-143.

Jon Entine has written about this extensively.

http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/straw_man_of_race.htm

234

(Originally Posted by **you with the face **)
“Your fixation on basketball is strange, to say the least. Out of all the sports that are played in this country and around the world, we’re supposed to swallow that basketball is the exceptional one by being pursued with equal fervor across all racial and socioeconomic strata? The idea is ridiculous on its face. Here’s a though experiment: How about we poll some elementary-school students and find out who is more likely say they want to be basketball players when they grow up. Anyone really believe that the proportion of whites saying yes will come anywhere close to the proportion of blacks? This should give us an inclining as to whom is more likely to pursue the sport with any kind of dedication necessary to acheive professional status.”

I can’t decide if you are posting this tongue-in-cheek, since it makes my core point exactly: There are quantifiable, average physical differences beyond skin color among the cohorts which we characterize as “races.” No two cohorts are the same, of course, which is why it becomes a very reasonable possibility to look for genes where nurturing cannot be shown to be an advantage and yet outcomes are disproportionate.

235

My contention is that, of the high-school sports available to the athletic individual, those which create the most opportunity and prestige are the ones most sought after, and on average will be chosen first. The average decision for an individual highly skilled at basketball and wrestling is basketball; more scholarships, more prestige and the potential of a career if he is at the highest tier. Other sports are pursued as secondary choices by those for whom stardom at the primary sports is not an option.

I also contend that there are cultural influences; I am not arguing against that at all. But I live and talk in the real world, and I don’t think it requires a formal study to determine that if an individual is possessed of such a high basketball skillset that he has potential for highschool stardom–and having proven that, college startdom (and having proven that, NBA stardom)–it’s unlikely he will pursue wrestling. To put it nicely, basketball and football are average first choices for those who can perform them best; even academic professional careers tend to be second choices for those who have a choice.

Now what this means at a practical level is that the starting pool of potential NBA players is larger for whites than it is for blacks, but as the children mature, they are gradually weeded out as the superior athletes outperform them. So in gradeschool there may be a proportionate representation; less so in high-school; still less so in college and markedly less so in the NBA.

I use this example because it is easily-grasped and it does not need to prove normalization of opportunity. No one would argue that blacks have more opportunity–more nurturing along the way. No; they have a harder road to climb and yet they climb it more successfully. The difference is that–as a group–their cohort has a higher frequency distribution of whatever gene set it is that sets the maximum potential for that skillset. It may well be true that only a subset (West African descendants, say) provides almost all the genes that enable the superset of all blacks to outperform the superset of all whites.

I am not arguing about definitions of “race” here. I don’t care about them. I have said many times the only reason to consider “race” as a cohort is that members of a given “race” suggest there be preferential treatment based on that characterization. That’s another topic, and for what it is worth, I support race-based AA.

I am arguing for something much simpler: where we see disproportionate representation among race-based cohorts, genes is a reasonable explanation where we can show that opportunity has been normalized. The charge that disproportionate outcome absolutely must be due to disproportionate opportunity has no merit. There are differences among us based on our genes.

It would be fine–commendable, perhaps–to get rid of the notion of “race.” But maintaining the charge that inequities seen at the level of racial cohorts are prima facie evidence of racism (for example) opens the door to examining distribution of genes by “race.” And that, I think, is the looming crisis in human genetics. We will see a difference, we will see average distribution frequency differences for all sorts of things based on “race” and we will have to come to grips with the fact that, as with any cohort grouping, we can show patterns along racial lines.

I agree with the sentiment of “so what?” but I do not agree with the sentiment that there cannot be a difference or that all evidence shows there is none.

236

I didn’t say that.

237

Okay, here is a true story and a question.

I have a friend who is over seven feet tall. He is slim and athletic. Just about everyone who meets him asks “Do you play basketball?” He replies that now and then he plays as a hobby and was on his high school team, but he never really pursued it because he’s been too busy with his studies and is planning a career in international diplomacy. His family has encouraged this pursuit, and his friends get the giggles whenever they imagine the guy as NBA baller.

Question: Is my friend black or white?

I imagine most of you pretty much imagined he’d be white, and you are right. Now ask yourself, why did you think that? What does that say about how how a career in basketball is viewed by different communities

238

I have a friend who from grade six who when he found out that basketball was a sport he could excell at beyond his peers played basketball before school and during lunch and for several hours after school day in and day out, weather permitting.

Actually it was me.

Am I black or white ?

239

Tell me more and I’ll hazard a guess, but it will only really work if you seriously have a shot at becoming professional basketball player.

[ul]
[li]What are your career goals? What influenced these career goals? Did basketball have any affect on your career goals?[/li][li]Do you and your friends spin fantasies about how basketball will eventually earn you money? Do any of your friends seriously believe this is a possibility?[/li][li]How would your family react if you decided to pin your hopes on being a pro basketball player, perhaps to the detriment of your studies and other career goals?[/li][li]Do you play other sport in organized competition? What sports do your friends play in organized competition?[/li][li]If you got a sports scholarship and an academic scholarship, which would you consider a better option for your future? [/li][/ul]

I knew some huckster was going to come on and say “Nuh-uh! I know a black guy who is good at basketball and never dreamed of joining the NBA.” or “I know a white guy who dreams all day of basketball.”

Thats not the point at all. The point is that a 7 foot tall black teenager and a 7 foot tall white teenager are probably facing much different social, personal and family inputs, and that there is a good chance that the 7 foot tall black guy is going to have more forces encouraging him to pursue basketball, while the 7 foot tall white guy is going to have more social pressures against taking it seriously. Hence, there are more black teenagers that take basketball seriously, leading to more black NBA players.

240

Right, but are you also denying any genetically based differences in average ability between populations? Because it is already clear that there are population differences in ACTN3 variants, which would logically lead to some differences in representation at the highest levels of speed and power sports.