# The loophole in transgender bathroom rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610 "2017-02-24T04:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/41 "2017-02-24T22:01:51Z")
Question for the ladies, and also business owners/store managers, etc., although anyone can answer: Suppose you see a man going into a woman’s restroom and you \*know \*that that is a cisgender man who is not trans in any way - that he’s going into the restroom to stir up controversy. Kind of like a transgender false-flag agent. When accosted, he claims, of course, to be transgender. What would you do? Kind of like the “What would you do if someone brings a “service animal” into a store, who is obviously just a pet and not a service animal” question. I’m not asking this to stir up a fight, I’m sincerely asking what the response should or would be. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/42 "2017-02-24T22:11:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Question for the ladies, and also business owners/store managers, etc., although anyone can answer: > > Suppose you see a man going into a woman’s restroom and you \*know \*that that is a cisgender man who is not trans in any way - that he’s going into the restroom to stir up controversy. Kind of like a transgender false-flag agent. When accosted, he claims, of course, to be transgender. What would you do? > > Kind of like the “What would you do if someone brings a “service animal” into a store, who is obviously just a pet and not a service animal” question. > I’m not asking this to stir up a fight, I’m sincerely asking what the response should or would be. If I was a customer, I would immediately block his entrance to the restroom and call for security and/or the store manager. If I were the business owners/store manager I would immediately block his entrance to the restroom then inform him has two options 1.) leave and never return to my business again or 2.) continue arguing further and let the police settle the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/43 "2017-02-24T22:58:38Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If I was a customer, I would immediately block his entrance to the restroom and call for security and/or the store manager. If I were the business owners/store manager I would immediately block his entrance to the restroom then inform him has two options 1.) leave and never return to my business again or 2.) continue arguing further and let the police settle the matter. And how do you know this wasn’t a transgender MtF person? You’re just causing undue problems. Just what sort of horrible things do you expect this person to be doing in the bathroom anyway, that will hurt anybody else? ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/44 "2017-02-24T23:04:18Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If I was a customer, I would immediately block his entrance to the restroom and call for security and/or the store manager. If I were the business owners/store manager I would immediately block his entrance to the restroom then inform him has two options 1.) leave and never return to my business again or 2.) continue arguing further and let the police settle the matter. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/45 "2017-02-24T23:37:46Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > And how do you know this wasn’t a transgender MtF person? You’re just causing undue problems. Just what sort of horrible things do you expect this person to be doing in the bathroom anyway, that will hurt anybody else? Rape, robbery, murder, and assault come to mind. Men (cis or otherwise) should not enter women’s restrooms unless they wish to be treated as potential criminals. Also, Velocity’s question presumes, I absolutely know the individual in question is male. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/46 "2017-02-25T00:51:41Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > My mother has a friend who was with a female friend in a restaurant or bar (this was maybe 30-35 years ago, so I don’t remember the details). There was a very tall woman who looked pretty masculine who went into the ladies’ room. These two, with insatiable curiosity, followed this person in. The person went into a stall, and a couple of minutes later, one of these woman got into the next stall and stepped up onto the toilet to look over the partition. This was unspeakably rude but what she saw was a man with a “men’s magazine” in one hand (your assumption is correct about what was in the other). I do not know what followed, whether police were called, etc., etc. I do not know if this person was transgender, transvestite, or simply trying to sneak into the ladies’ room, but if the latter this scenario could be repeated under more permissive bathroom policies. > > I am not saying this loophole should prevent bathroom rights, but it is a problem. > > If you support transgender bathroom rights, how do you respond to this scenario? Like others, I do not believe that this anecdote really happened. But speaking as a (cisgender, although I am rather tall…) woman, I’d much prefer to share a public restroom with someone who’s minding their own business in their own stall than someone who would climb up onto a toilet to get a look at my genitals. I’m pretty sure that peeping on someone in a bathroom stall is also a crime. So my response to this scenario is that the peeping woman is a criminal pervert and should be dealt with accordingly. I don’t think that quietly masturbating in a closed stall in a public bathroom is a crime, but if it is then I’d consider it a far less serious one. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/47 "2017-02-25T02:36:44Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > And how do you know this wasn’t a transgender MtF person? You’re just causing undue problems. Just what sort of horrible things do you expect this person to be doing in the bathroom anyway, that will hurt anybody else? Well, you know, maybe commit [sexual assault](http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception). ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/48 "2017-02-25T02:44:46Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > After checking the date on this thread…you didn’t come up with this, it’s literally the only argument the people who are opposed to all of this have. Yeah, this has been debated on this message board and pretty throughly hashed out since before 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/49 "2017-02-25T02:59:13Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > I have a casual acquaintance / drinking buddy who is a trans man. He’s married to a cisgender female, and looks like a short, chubby (sorry dude), bearded, balding lumberjack with ear plugs and a bunch of tattoos. > > I’m a little dumbfounded that anybody would feel more comfortable if he used the ladies’ room. Conservatives in general are not more comfortable with transgender men in the women’s room. This is why Texas considered an anti-transgender bathroom bill to be introduced this last January that would have only applied to transgender women (my contact in the Texas legislature said that was dropped as even conservative attorneys said the law would be thrown out by the courts within hours of passage). But at least it was actually was a more honest approach to what anti-transgender bigots are really driven by. Namely, the heart of anti-transgender bathroom laws and feelings are misogyny, homophobia, and fear of loss of masculinity. - Hysterical homophobia that they might be attracted to a person who once (or may still have) the Almighty Penis. - Fear that their concept of masculinity as being the greatest gift from God may not be so great if people can willingly “give it up” (the irony being, we never really had it in the first place). - A desire to reinforce paternalism and get a masculine "I am the protector, rawr ego boost by “protectin’ all them weak womenfolk.” Transgender men are not seen as a threat because most of the anti-transgender bigots see them as just “confused women,” and because they are just women, then they are not a threat. There is also a smattering of admiration for some transgender men, because it reinforces the high value that some place on masculinity. Obviously, since these “confused women” are so incredibly driven to be masculine, it means masculinity must be really awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/50 "2017-02-25T03:03:52Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Well, you know, maybe commit [sexual assault](http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception). And a sample size of one, or even a few over years or decades, is still meaningless. But of course you knew that. :rolleyes: Before you try trotting out more “examples”, folks here might want to read this: [http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article70255967.html](http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article70255967.html) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/51 "2017-02-25T03:09:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Honestly, and maybe this is worth its own thread, but the transgender bathroom issue strikes me as being an issue that is an inevitable loser for the liberal side and a Pyrrhic victory for the reactionaries. This is an issue of insignificant scale and importance that has suddenly blown up beyond about fifty more pressing issues. > > The liberal side here has inexplicably chosen to focus their efforts on a miniscule issue that is one hundred percent guaranteed to make them look, at best, kind of weird to the relatively centrist voters. > > The conservative side, as usual, wants to use a sledgehammer to smash in the heads of people weaker than they are. I’m not sure how you intend that, but I read that as “knock it off, you guys [liberals], you look stupid and no one is taking you seriously and we’re wasting a lot of resources fighting you on this”. To which a simple reply would be “knock it off, you guys [republicans], this is a really, really big deal to some people and if it’s so minuscule to everyone else, stop wasting so many resources fighting it”. When I see the two arguments: A)I’m transgender and would rather use the other bathroom B)I’m worried people will lie about being transgender to sneak into the other bathroom and masturbate in the stall next to me (or take pictures?). I see the first one as being a legitimate concern, it’s the second one that I see as silly looking and not just that, I see the real motivator being “I don’t want those people in the bathroom with me”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/52 "2017-02-25T03:31:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Honestly, and maybe this is worth its own thread, but the transgender bathroom issue strikes me as being an issue that is an inevitable loser for the liberal side and a Pyrrhic victory for the reactionaries. This is an issue of insignificant scale and importance that has suddenly blown up beyond about fifty more pressing issues. > > The liberal side here has inexplicably chosen to focus their efforts on a miniscule issue that is one hundred percent guaranteed to make them look, at best, kind of weird to the relatively centrist voters. > > The conservative side, as usual, wants to use a sledgehammer to smash in the heads of people weaker than they are. Transgendered people are a very small minority, so I guess it’s okay to discriminate against them? Or its just not worth anyone else caring if they get discriminated against? I’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to say here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/53 "2017-02-25T03:57:57Z")
I think the point everyone is missing is that it’s not about safety it’s merely about conventions. There is no policy in place that prevents bathroom assaults other than normal law enforcement. IT’s not like there’s a scanner at the door that doesn’t let you in unless you’re the correct sex and very few places post security at bathrooms, so even if it’s in theory not allowed for a male to enter a female bathroom, he can still slip in very easily. On the other hand, suggesting that transgendered are safe and straight men are a threat is offensive. And the right to use the most convenient bathroom should apply to all. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/54 "2017-02-25T04:17:48Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Rape, robbery, murder, and assault come to mind. Men (cis or otherwise) should not enter women’s restrooms unless they wish to be treated as potential criminals. Also, Velocity’s question presumes, I absolutely know the individual in question is male. Wow - that’s going to make it really hard for the janitor at work to clean the restrooms - which could stand more frequent cleaning, just sayin’. He’s just doing his job, he’s not a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/55 "2017-02-25T04:28:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think the point everyone is missing is that it’s not about safety it’s merely about conventions. There is no policy in place that prevents bathroom assaults other than normal law enforcement. IT’s not like there’s a scanner at the door that doesn’t let you in unless you’re the correct sex and very few places post security at bathrooms, so even if it’s in theory not allowed for a male to enter a female bathroom, he can still slip in very easily. > > On the other hand, suggesting that transgendered are safe and straight men are a threat is offensive. And the right to use the most convenient bathroom should apply to all. Not sure I’m following any of this. Surely the right to use the bathroom you’d prefer to use is a reasonable right to extend to all? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/56 "2017-02-25T04:30:48Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Rape, robbery, murder, and assault come to mind. Men (cis or otherwise) should not enter women’s restrooms unless they wish to be treated as potential criminals. Also, Velocity’s question presumes, I absolutely know the individual in question is male. Has this ever happened? So you’re an expert on whether someone is a MtF trans person? Which gender is [this person](https://bestofsno.com/7801/opinions/transition-to-a-new-year/#)? And [this person](http://desinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Male-to-female-8-768x1024.jpg)? And[this person](https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/12/16/dowling.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/57 "2017-02-25T04:33:58Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Well, you know, maybe commit [sexual assault](http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception). Wow, what a sterling example of journalism. Is that the standard integrity for all _Toronto Sun_ writers? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/58 "2017-02-25T04:42:55Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Well, you know, maybe commit [sexual assault](http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception). This specific article has come up repeatedly. Why? Because it’s literally the only example anyone on this board has been able to uncover of a transgender woman assaulting women by entering women’s spaces. And it contains a key line: > [@](#): > > Psychiatric reports concluded Hambrook is not transgender. Even with the broader worry–that cisgender dudes will follow in this asshole’s footsteps–it is, as I said, a vanishingly rare occurrence. If you really want to worry about men committing sex crimes in bathrooms, you should have separate facilities for Republican lawmakers, who commit such crimes at vastly higher percentages. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/59 "2017-02-25T06:19:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This specific article has come up repeatedly. Why? Because it’s literally the only example anyone on this board has been able to uncover of a transgender woman assaulting women by entering women’s spaces. And it contains a key line: > > Even with the broader worry–that cisgender dudes will follow in this asshole’s footsteps–it is, as I said, a vanishingly rare occurrence. If you really want to worry about men committing sex crimes in bathrooms, you should have separate facilities for Republican lawmakers, who commit such crimes at vastly higher percentages. So, [agreeing with you, if this comes out clumsily], of the over 300 million people in the US, there’s been one case where this has happened. Seems to me all the people that say ‘don’t we have better things to worry about’\*, should go worry about those other things. \*Better things to worry about, as in, let’s just pass the bathroom bills, leave well enough alone and move on. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/60 "2017-02-25T07:13:15Z")
thank god Donald J. Trump decided to make the genders two again! No more 32 genders! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610.md?page=4)