# The loophole in transgender bathroom rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610 "2017-02-24T04:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/101 "2017-02-26T01:10:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > More accurately, Trump just doesn’t care about genders. He’s gonna fuck us all the same. You win today’s interwebs. ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/102 "2017-02-26T01:11:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > More accurately, Trump just doesn’t care about genders. He’s gonna fuck us all the same. He has to keep it simple so he can more easily grab the pussies. ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/103 "2017-02-26T01:20:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So my question is, how often do cis men chase women into women’s bathrooms in order to commit violent assault on them? This doesn’t make any sense because at this time a man who clearly looks like a man would stand out like a sore thumb if he followed a girl or woman into the restroom or otherwise lurked there. IF they were backed up by law in doing this, that would change. And regardless of if people want to brush it aside, there are most definitely many male sex predators out there and they will take a new opportunity if they get it, including being allowed free access, legally, to women’s restrooms. This is not changed by the fact that assault is already illegal or the fact that there are other places they can assault women. Not transwomen but predatory men who could take advantage of a law change meant to protect transwomen. I do not think many men would wear a dress for this purpose and when people try to turn it into that I do not think they are discussing in a fair manner. I think a law change to protect transwomen would be good but not a no holds barred anyone can go into any restroom with legal protection. Then there’s where that line is exactly. Which quickly devolves into a discussion that sounds like deciding whether we’re all really living on the head of a pin… ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/104 "2017-02-26T01:29:05Z")
Blah, my post timed out. Anyway, as to the earlier part of your post, no, this would not affect all transpeople but only the mtf ones who want to use the women’s restroom and don’t pass for female. I am sure there are far more predatory males out there and women’s restrooms would be a prime place for assaults if these men were allowed free and legal access to enter the women’s restroom at will. So, as I mentioned, my issue is not transwomen using the women’s restroom but predatory males taking advantage of a law change. Sweeping that away, no, it is a legitimate fear. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/105 "2017-02-26T02:16:14Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > I’d like to know what’s going on in these women’s restrooms that’s so sexy. Are women showering together and lathering each other up in there or something? I’ve always just assumed they’re taking a shit. We have a pool in there. That’s why we always go in pairs - we were taught to swim with a buddy. Because we don’t have swimsuits with us, we swim in the nude. ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/106 "2017-02-26T02:19:10Z")
Obviously, we are trying to lure in perverts! ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/107 "2017-02-26T02:29:55Z")
Wait a minute, is it currently actually _illegal_ in most places for a man merely to enter a women’s room? as opposed to doing something untoward to a woman while in there? I was under the impression that these laws would make _merely entering_ illegal for the first time, as opposed to lifting an existing ban. FWIW, there were times when my husband went into women’s single stall restrooms when out son was a baby, because only the women’s room had a changing table. No one ever stopped him. I assumed it was because he had a baby, and he wasn’t the first man to do that. He has done this in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York and California, and not been stopped. I have taken my son into women’s rooms with me in some dicey locales, when I might otherwise have let him go in the men’s room alone, and he is big for his age, so he was an 8-year-old who looked 10 or 11. No one ever stopped us. Also, when I worked with disabled people, it was before there were “family” bathrooms everywhere. I sometimes was with a teenage boy or a man who needed either assistance or supervision in the bathroom. I had to make a decision to go into the men’s or women’s room with them, and it usually was decided by whether or not there were multiple units. If there was going to be a row of men standing at urinals, I didn’t want to walk in. My point is, whatever I chose, no one ever questioned me. So I doubt I was doing anything actually illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/108 "2017-02-26T02:41:22Z")
Rivkah, I am not a bathroom expert lol but I would expect most people just go by common sense in real life. I doubt most women or girls would feel threatened by or report any of the scenarios you mention. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/109 "2017-02-26T02:51:40Z")
> [@Fruitbat2](#): > > Blah, my post timed out. Anyway, as to the earlier part of your post, no, this would not affect all transpeople but only the mtf ones who want to use the women’s restroom and don’t pass for female. I am sure there are far more predatory males out there and women’s restrooms would be a prime place for assaults if these men were allowed free and legal access to enter the women’s restroom at will. > > So, as I mentioned, my issue is not transwomen using the women’s restroom but predatory males taking advantage of a law change. Sweeping that away, no, it is a legitimate fear. So, there’s two different discussions here: 1. ZPG’s claim that “Men who assault women look for easy targets and opportunities. Public restrooms are obviously one of those. Making it easier for assailants to find hunting grounds is detrimental to women’s safety.” If these are easy opportunities already–before or after the Justice Department opinion was published–there should be some stats to back this up. I was unable to find any; indeed, the best I could find was a scant handful of vaguely-related anecdotes on World Net Daily, couched in their typical paranoid bigotry. 2. The question of whether predatory males will take advantage of this. I suspect a vanishingly few number will, **because it’s just not an effective strategy.** A dude who tries this is going to get called on his shit. Sexual predators tend to look for isolated victims, victims they know and have power over, look for crimes they can easily get away with. Going into a public place where strangers will walk in, strangers with cell phones where there’s easy access to 911, doesn’t map to how most sexual assaults work. Don’t take my word for it, however: look at the link I offered previously (or just Google “sexual assault statistics public restrooms”), to find that experts in the field disagree with you and say, no, this is not a realistic fear. ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/110 "2017-02-26T02:55:27Z")
As I’ve already said, there is a difference between things as they are now and what might occur if men are given carte blanche to enter women’s restrooms at will. There are now serious social barriers to men entering women’s restrooms. Yes, it is likely not many assaults currently take place there because they stand out like a sore thumb there. And that is exactly the safety barrier many of us women and girls do not want to be interfered with, so you have actually proven my point or half of it anyway. There can not be statistics on something that has not happened yet- ie men being (loudly) let know they are welcome to enter women’s restrooms if they feel like it. If you want to discuss with me, you need to listen as well as speak. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/111 "2017-02-26T03:25:29Z")
But the “men” you are worried about look like women. Most of the fit right in, and the rest are making enough of an effort, that they are going to be given a pass. On the other hand, if you insist that trans men have to use the women’s room, you are going to be insisting that people who look, act and dress like men, and are for the most part indistinguishable from those born with penises. THAT is what would make it easier for a man-born-man to slip into a woman’s restroom. And insisting that people born with penises, who to all intents and purposes look, act and dress like women, use the men’s room, those people are likely to get assaulted, because trans people tend to get assaulted, and especially by non trans men. The whole thing is ridiculous. For every assault that may be prevented (and I mean really prevented, not just redirected to a dark alley, or an elevator, or some other place), I am going to suggest there will be several assaults on trans women in men’s rooms, and a couple of cases of verbal harassment of trans men in women’s rooms. ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/112 "2017-02-26T03:37:15Z")
I am going to leave this conversation now because it really ceases to be enjoyable when people don’t read what was actually said but instead put strawmen of their own making onto others, then argue against their own creations. But carry on! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/113 "2017-02-26T03:38:04Z")
> [@Fruitbat2](#): > > As I’ve already said, there is a difference between things as they are now and what might occur if men are given carte blanche to enter women’s restrooms at will. There are now serious social barriers to men entering women’s restrooms. Yes, it is likely not many assaults currently take place there because they stand out like a sore thumb there. And that is exactly the safety barrier many of us women and girls do not want to be interfered with, so you have actually proven my point or half of it anyway. There can not be statistics on something that has not happened yet- ie men being (loudly) let know they are welcome to enter women’s restrooms if they feel like it. If you want to discuss with me, you need to listen as well as speak. There are already plenty of places where transgender bathroom rights have been acknowledged. Can you point to any evidence of a rise in sexual assaults happening in bathrooms in any of those places? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/114 "2017-02-26T03:41:05Z")
Fruitbat has left the thread, but I’m sure if assaults were up, the government would have made sure we heard about it, even if it needed to hire town criers, because the media can’t be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/115 "2017-02-26T03:47:37Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Seriously? In my observation mothers **rarely** let little boys under the age of 7 or 8 or so go to the mens room all by themselves. They either send them into the mens room with their dads or older brothers, or drag the poor little guys into the ladies room (which [lots of people talk about](https://www.google.com/#q=little+boys+ladies+room&*)!). I really don’t think they’re worried that the boys are going to make a mess or break something in the mens room if they’re in there unsupervised… I understand that. But I’m talking about the people who are absolutely certain that there are going to be hoards of perverts marching into ladies rooms to rape women and little girls if we allow trans people to use the restrooms they prefer. That little girls are soooo vulnerable. Yet, they don’t seem to have a problem with little boys using the mens room, despite the fact that there may be perverts lurking there as well. They’re so obsessed with the idea that women are going to be raped en masse. But they never seemed to see bathroom-rape as a problem before. If child molestors aren’t a problem in the mens’ room, why would they all of a sudden start hanging out in the womens’ room now? You see what I mean? Honestly, I’d be willing to bet that all of us has shared a bathroom with a trans person at least once without realizing it. Quite frankly, as long as you flush and don’t make a mess, I really don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/116 "2017-02-26T03:48:19Z")
> [@Fruitbat2](#): > > I am going to leave this conversation now because it really ceases to be enjoyable when people don’t read what was actually said but instead put strawmen of their own making onto others, then argue against their own creations. But carry on! On the off-chance you’re still around, [please reread this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20026600&postcount=93). What you think is people not reading you is, ironically, your not responding to points previously raised. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/117 "2017-02-26T04:11:01Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Wait a minute, is it currently actually _illegal_ in most places for a man merely to enter a women’s room? as opposed to doing something untoward to a woman while in there? I was under the impression that these laws would make _merely entering_ illegal for the first time, as opposed to lifting an existing ban. IANAL, but as far as I can tell from a little online searching, in my state (and it’s not an especially liberal one) there is no law preventing men from entering women’s restrooms or vice versa. There are laws against peeping on or making a video/photo of someone in a state of undress in a place like a restroom or dressing room where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, but it’s apparently perfectly legal to enter the “wrong” restroom as long as you aren’t trying to get an eyeful and don’t whip out a camera. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/118 "2017-02-26T05:04:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is this a significant problem? If it happens to you or a loved one, yes. I once was the target of an attempted robbery at a highway rest stop. By another woman, I might add, not a man, in the ladies’ rest room. Apparently she had a male accomplice in the men’s room. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/119 "2017-02-26T06:24:23Z")
> [@Fruitbat2](#): > > As I’ve already said, there is a difference between things as they are now and what might occur if men are given carte blanche to enter women’s restrooms at will. There are now serious social barriers to men entering women’s restrooms. Yes, it is likely not many assaults currently take place there because they stand out like a sore thumb there. And that is exactly the safety barrier many of us women and girls do not want to be interfered with, so you have actually proven my point or half of it anyway. There can not be statistics on something that has not happened yet- ie men being (loudly) let know they are welcome to enter women’s restrooms if they feel like it. If you want to discuss with me, you need to listen as well as speak. Not one of your posts have convinced me that you actually honestly understand the situation of people like me. Or else you simply don’t care because you’re too consumed about this fear of what _might_ happen, despite there being practically no evidence it may happen. Or your ability to assess relative risk really just is that abominable. ---
**Author:** ![Fruitbat2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Fruitbat2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fruitbat2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/120 "2017-02-26T06:38:12Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Not one of your posts have convinced me that you actually honestly understand the situation of people like me. Or else you simply don’t care because you’re too consumed about this fear of what _might_ happen, despite there being practically no evidence it may happen. Or your ability to assess relative risk really just is that abominable. Whoever you are, I don’t need to convince you of anything and do not really recognize you as an expert in my risk assessment abilities, nor are you the only person who counts. Thanks for sharing, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610.md?page=7)