# The loophole in transgender bathroom rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610 "2017-02-24T04:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/121 "2017-02-26T06:47:32Z")
> [@Pinmin](#): > > The bigger problem with the loophole is that “bathrooms” also includes changing rooms/ locker rooms / showers. Someone born as a male goes into the ladies locker room and showers at the city pool and sits around for a while. Is there anything wrong with that? They watch females changing in and out of swimsuits; have they done anything wrong? The females being watch feel uncomfortable with it, are they just bigots? Do those females feel uncomfortable if the person sitting there happens to be a lesbian? Do males who see a trans male just sitting there, quietly minding his business, feel uncomfortable? > [@clairobscur](#): > > I can say for Europe at large, but over here specifically, unless the place is too small to have more than one bathroom with one stall, you will normally find separate women’s and men’s restrooms. > > However, not unfrequently, people will use the other gender restroom when they can’t use the one they’re assigned (all stalls, or the only stall, already in use for instance). I see that happening regularly (and do it myself) and I’m yet to hear someone making a fuss over this. I can verify that the same is true IME in Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden and the UK. There is also a growing trend for places which can get away with it\* to forego the separate bathrooms and build a single one with a couple of full-wall stalls, no urinals. - Small enough that even though they could fulfill the letter of laws requiring separate bathrooms (some countries have them), any architect will certify that the “adapted” room would be a bitch to get into and out of. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/122 "2017-02-26T07:04:44Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I can say for Europe at large, but over here specifically, unless the place is too small to have more than one bathroom with one stall, you will normally find separate women’s and men’s restrooms. > > However, not unfrequently, people will use the other gender restroom when they can’t use the one they’re assigned (all stalls, or the only stall, already in use for instance). I see that happening regularly (and do it myself) and I’m yet to hear someone making a fuss over this. And if this hasn’t created a big issue, it should just be the norm. Mens and womens restrooms isn’t the law, it’s a convention, and one that can be broken in certain circumstances, such as if one is out of order. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/123 "2017-02-26T07:45:30Z")
Getting ready to go to bed and scrolling through facebook and ran across a video. Mostly unrelated, but at the end, she added in a few things which seemed like they belonged in this thread: How upset can you really be about bathrooms in NC if you don’t live there and don’t need to pee? She went on to say (paraphrased), If Colin Kapernick takes a knee, what changed in your life? IOW, as she points out, you’re taking something that’s very important to a lot of people, has next to no impact on yours and saying ‘make this about me!’. [Here’s the video](https://www.facebook.com/smoothiefreak/videos/1212330455488205/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED), it’s from facebook, but so far as I can tell, you don’t need to have a facebook page to view it. Also, just to be clear, I’m not looking or asking for commentary on the rest of the video. I’m not familiar with her or the person she’s talking about, I just thought the last few comments made sense for this thread. @adaher, I never gave much though (as I’m guessing most people haven’t) as to whether or not which bathroom I, or anyone else, can walk into is or isn’t law or just convention. However, several states have attempted to make it law, that’s why it’s a big deal right now. At some point in this thread, someone mentioned that it’s just a hot topic right now, but that’s not the case. It’s not like it’s a minority group trying to _get_ something they don’t have access to and they’ve shoehorned they’re way into the media so we’re all talking about it. It’s that a few states (a most notably NC) said ‘hold up here, you used to be a man, well, back to the men’s room for you’. In other words, they _had_ the right to use the bathroom they felt more comfortable with and it was actively taken away from them. TLDR, transgender people aren’t fighting FOR the right to use the other bathroom, they’re fighting for that right to not be taken away. And with that, they’re not making it a hot topic, they people trying to create the laws are. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/124 "2017-02-26T10:22:09Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > How upset can you really be about bathrooms in NC if you don’t live there and don’t need to pee? I don’t have to _be_ oppressed in order to feel empathy for victims of oppression. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/125 "2017-02-26T11:09:21Z")
> [@Fruitbat2](#): > > Whoever you are, I don’t need to convince you of anything and do not really recognize you as an expert in my risk assessment abilities, nor are you the only person who counts. Thanks for sharing, though. una persson is someone who doesnt need me sticking up for her, but i’m gonna do it anyway; she’s someone who knows whereof she speaks. > **[Ask the Transsexual Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=711614)** > > Hi there. I searched and did not really find an “ask the” thread similar to this, except for an old thread by a transman. So I thought I would go ahead and start one, since I received many PMs over the year asking me to do such. I will note a few... ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/126 "2017-02-26T11:56:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If it happens to you or a loved one, yes. That may not be how you want to frame it, because of the obvious corollary: since it hasn’t happened to me or my loved ones, it must not be a significant problem. I reject that formulation, of course, because it’s silly. When I ask whether it is a significant problem, I am asking how often it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/127 "2017-02-26T12:35:31Z")
OK, how about janitorial closets? Nobody bats an eye at anyone, male or female, going into one of those, and they’re a lot less frequented, so it’s much less likely for a witness to walk in. It looks to me like they’d be a much better place for an assault than restrooms. So why don’t we have laws against more than one person being in a janitorial closet at once, or segregating them by sex? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/128 "2017-02-26T13:34:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And if this hasn’t created a big issue, it should just be the norm. Mens and womens restrooms isn’t the law, it’s a convention, and one that can be broken in certain circumstances, such as if one is out of order. Actually, in some countries it _is_ the law for places of work (which includes “public access bathrooms”, such as those found in bars, restaurants and similar). But like I said in the post right above yours, it’s a law that makes allowances for when separate bathrooms make no sense. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/129 "2017-02-26T14:25:03Z")
> [@Fruitbat2](#): > > As I’ve already said, there is a difference between things as they are now and what might occur if men are given carte blanche to enter women’s restrooms at will. There are now serious social barriers to men entering women’s restrooms. Well, I already mentioned that over here, men do occasionally enter women’s bathrooms (in fact in response to one of your posts, if I’m not mistaken), it’s not illegal AFAIK, and in any case, nobody will comment if one does, nor try to prevent him. And I’m not aware of an epidemic of bathroom assaults, nor of women being afraid to go to the bathrooms because a man could enter. So, I think this fear is completely overblown. Probably precisely steaming from the fact that you’re accustomed to bathrooms being a “no-man zone”, making the idea of a man entering frightening because it’s so abnormal to begin with where you are. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/130 "2017-02-26T14:36:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t have to _be_ oppressed in order to feel empathy for victims of oppression. If that’s the takeaway you got from that statement and the attached video, I think you may have seen it from a different angle. Do you also feel empathy for Colin Kaepernicks victims? He did oppress _a lot_ of people by taking a knee. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610/131 "2017-02-26T15:25:48Z")
> [@Fruitbat2](#): > > Whoever you are, I don’t need to convince you of anything and do not really recognize you as an expert in my risk assessment abilities, nor are you the only person who counts. Thanks for sharing, though. You should care about trying to convince me, since I’m one of that minority population that you’re directly targeting with your “concern” on this subject. I also happen to be a professional on this very subject. And didn’t you leave the thread already? Make up your mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-loophole-in-transgender-bathroom-rights/780610.md?page=6)