# "The Lottery": is it "realistic"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 9, 2014, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883 "2014-02-09T07:03:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/21 "2014-02-09T23:41:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > All it takes is a religious belief that routine human sacrifice is a beautiful, wonderful thing and that everyone who doesn’t agree with this is going to hell, and what you get is a population that believes in routine human sacrifice. I’m not so sure. Considering the huge cost involved, I think there would be significant kicking back against it. This is especially so since the society depicted in the story seems so “American.” At very least, there would be an “anti” segment of the population. Imagine if an American church instituted tithing…and the money was (to all visible purposes) thrown away. Not used for good works or charity, not used to build a new belfry, but thrown away. Used to buy, say, golden icons where were then thrown into a volcano. You’d very soon see people asking, “Why am I donating so much of my money just to feed the volcano?” All the moreso in a case of loss of life. You think the abortion issue is contentious? This would be even moreso! It is inconsistent with the “American” description. We like to argue about stuff. (This thread presented as evidence!) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/22 "2014-02-10T00:01:44Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m not so sure. Considering the huge cost involved, I think there would be significant kicking back against it. This is especially so since the society depicted in the story seems so “American.” At very least, there would be an “anti” segment of the population. > > Imagine if an American church instituted tithing…and the money was (to all visible purposes) thrown away. Not used for good works or charity, not used to build a new belfry, but thrown away. Used to buy, say, golden icons where were then thrown into a volcano. You’d very soon see people asking, “Why am I donating so much of my money just to feed the volcano?” > > All the moreso in a case of loss of life. You think the abortion issue is contentious? This would be even moreso! > > It is inconsistent with the “American” description. We like to argue about stuff. (This thread presented as evidence!) Maybe in this fictional town, anyone who dares to dissent is exiled. And maybe this is one of the few places with water or maybe other towns are ravaged by disease and famine (which only affirms to the townpeople that the rite works), so being exiled is akin to being tortured and killed. Maybe a person who questions is not only exiled, but so is their entire family. I think people, even Americans, are fundamentally stupid. Most of us don’t even think to ask “why”. And for the ones of us who do, it’s just a navel-gazing exercise and doesn’t result in action. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/23 "2014-02-10T00:03:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Good reasoning. It’s like how restaurants, even today, have specials on fish on Fridays, even though the Catholic Church long ago dropped the “fish doesn’t count as meat on Friday” idea. The Catholic Church did no such thing. > **[Fasting and abstinence in the Catholic Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#United_States)** > > Jus novum (c. 1140-1563) > Jus novissimum (c. 1563-1918) > Jus codicis (1918-present) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/24 "2014-02-10T00:51:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > However…I didn’t believe in the story, since the cost – one human life! – is too great for people to accept without concern. As every year goes by, and someone loses a parent, or a child, or a friend, the numbers of those directly harmed by the tradition would increase, and would reach a tipping point, probably sooner than later. Really? Or maybe they would just think, “Well, none of you fuckers helped gramma, so fuck your brother. Stone the SOB.” > [@](#): > > Unless the pro-lottery side could show a real benefit to society, the institution would be discontinued. Actually, the opposite is true. You have to show actual harm to society to change an institution, the inertia to leave it in place must be overcome. > [@](#): > > If something in a story seems contradictory to our understanding of human society, you bet the buckles on your shoon we’re gonna point it out! Given the long human history of both human sacrifice and the scapegoat, how in the world do you conclude this is against human society? > [@Trinopus](#): > > Imagine if an American church instituted tithing…and the money was (to all visible purposes) thrown away. Not used for good works or charity, not used to build a new belfry, but thrown away. Used to buy, say, golden icons where were then thrown into a volcano. You’d very soon see people asking, “Why am I donating so much of my money just to feed the volcano?” Don’t have to imagine anything. See any number of televangelists who quite visibly spent money on useless self-benefitting bullshit and still managed to pull in the dough. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/25 "2014-02-10T01:11:45Z")
I always assumed that it was an allegory about how some kids at school are picked by their perceived weakness and destroyed so that everyone else can feel popular by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/26 "2014-02-10T02:13:34Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The Catholic Church did no such thing. > > [Fasting and abstinence in the Catholic Church - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_and_abstinence_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#United_States) Son of a bitch! I thought that all went out with the Latin Mass and a whole bunch of other antiquated shit! Wow! Thank you for setting me straight, even though it lowers my opinion of the church very significantly. (Can you still buy redemption from sins?) Seriously…wow. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/27 "2014-02-10T02:14:53Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > . . . Actually, the opposite is true. You have to show actual harm to society to change an institution, the inertia to leave it in place must be overcome. . . . Well, that’s part of my point. The institution does harm society, in a very obvious way. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/28 "2014-02-10T05:25:52Z")
When I first saw the trailer for the Hunger Games film, I mistakenly thought it was based on this short story. I had read the short story years ago, but hadn’t heard of the Hunger Games books back then. It would probably be tough to stretch out a short story like this into a feature-length film (much less a trilogy) though given how much hollywood loves sequels/trilogies/quadrilogies/bajillionilogies I wouldn’t doubt they’d try! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/29 "2014-02-10T11:26:19Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > When I first saw the trailer for the Hunger Games film, I mistakenly thought it was based on this short story. I had read the short story years ago, but hadn’t heard of the Hunger Games books back then. > > It would probably be tough to stretch out a short story like this into a feature-length film (much less a trilogy) though given how much hollywood loves sequels/trilogies/quadrilogies/bajillionilogies I wouldn’t doubt they’d try! > [@](#): > > In addition to numerous reprints in magazines, anthologies and textbooks, “The Lottery” has been adapted for radio, live television, a 1953 ballet, films in 1969 and 1997, a TV movie, an opera, and a one-act play by Thomas Martin. From [The Lottery - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lottery). ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/30 "2014-02-10T14:34:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Son of a bitch! I thought that all went out with the Latin Mass and a whole bunch of other antiquated shit! Wow! Thank you for setting me straight, even though it lowers my opinion of the church very significantly. (Can you still buy redemption from sins?) > > Seriously…wow. Huh? What’s so bad about no meat on Fridays? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/31 "2014-02-10T14:57:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The criticism misses the point. The story is all about the senselessness of ritual. If Jackson had spent pages on detailing the how and the why behind it, then she would have given credence and respectability to the whole thing and thus undermined the crux of the story. > > The adherents of the Lottery do not question why they do what they do. The rite just _is_. Well said. The story was and is so shocking because it’s set in an otherwise completely ordinary and unremarkable American small town. I don’t think its setting is post-apocalyptic; the implication is that the lottery has endured in the present day (it was published in _The New Yorker_ in 1948) even as the town has taken advantage of modern advances like vaccines, cars, electricity, etc. It’s fiction, and very well-written fiction. It blew me away when I first read it in high school. In the real world, though, I agree with **Trinopus** that it probably couldn’t have lasted into the modern era. The Lottery is community-sanctioned ritual murder. All it would take to end it would be one exile from the town, or one grieving family member, calling in the state police. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/32 "2014-02-10T15:13:06Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Well said. > > The story was and is so shocking because it’s set in an otherwise completely ordinary and unremarkable American small town. I don’t think its setting is post-apocalyptic; the implication is that the lottery has endured in the present day (it was published in _The New Yorker_ in 1948) even as the town has taken advantage of modern advances like vaccines, cars, electricity, etc. > > It’s fiction, and very well-written fiction. It blew me away when I first read it in high school. In the real world, though, I agree with **Trinopus** that it probably couldn’t have lasted into the modern era. The Lottery is community-sanctioned ritual murder. All it would take to end it would be one exile from the town, or one grieving family member, calling in the state police. But this ritual takes place in (or has recently taken place in) other communities as well. The state police must know about this. Even in the 1940’s, when this was published, there were cases of lynching which went unpunished, because that was “how things were done”. I think this falls under the same category. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/33 "2014-02-10T15:56:28Z")
Remember that Shirley Jackson was an outsider in the community where she spent much of her life. She was born in San Francisco, and grew up in a bookish family. She married a future literature critic, and was used to being around writers, artists and intellectuals. And then… Look, TODAY Vermont is regarded as a liberal Utopia and Bennington is one of the most liberal towns in America. But when Jackson’s husband took a faculty post at Bennington College, she was plopped into the middle of what was THEN an old-fashioned New England community she regarded as insular, backward, stifling, uncurious, conformist and overly bound to tradition. Self-styled progressive Shirley saw all kinds of things in Vermont that made no sense to her, but which nobody would ever change because, by golly, “That’s how we’ve ALWAYS done things.” An annual lottery where the “prize” is death isn’t supposed to be realistic- it’s just an extreme, exaggerated version of how Jackson perceived small town New England in the Forties and Fifties. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/34 "2014-02-10T18:51:18Z")
To clarify about the Catholic Church’s rules, it used to be the rule that you couldn’t have meat on any Friday year-round, or on any day of the week during Lent. In the Second Vatican Council, this was changed to no meat on Fridays in Lent, but meat was fine on other Fridays and other Lent days. In both cases, before and after the change, “meat” is defined to exclude fish. In any event, the point remains, in that many restaurants still have specials on fish on Fridays, year-round, and others have specials on fish during Lent, throughout the week. There may still be a practical reason for that, though: It might be impractical to have the specials _just_ on Fridays in Lent when it “means something”. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/35 "2014-02-10T20:06:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > To clarify about the Catholic Church’s rules, it used to be the rule that you couldn’t have meat on any Friday year-round, or on any day of the week during Lent. In the Second Vatican Council, this was changed to no meat on Fridays in Lent, but meat was fine on other Fridays and other Lent days. In both cases, before and after the change, “meat” is defined to exclude fish… And capybaras! [http://www.nysun.com/foreign/in-days-before-easter-venezuelans-tuck-into/11063/](http://www.nysun.com/foreign/in-days-before-easter-venezuelans-tuck-into/11063/) > **[Capybara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capybara)** > > Sus hydrochaeris Linnaeus, 1766 > The capybara\[a\] or greater capybara (Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris) is the largest living rodent, native to South America. It is a member of the genus Hydrochoerus. The only other extant member is the lesser capybara (Hydrochoerus isthmius). Its close relatives include guinea pigs and rock cavies, and it is more distantly related to the agouti, the chinchilla, and the nutria. The capybara inhabits savannas and dense forests, and lives near bodies of water. It is ... ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/36 "2014-02-10T20:24:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > To clarify about the Catholic Church’s rules, it used to be the rule that you couldn’t have meat on any Friday year-round, or on any day of the week during Lent. In the Second Vatican Council, this was changed to no meat on Fridays in Lent, but meat was fine on other Fridays and other Lent days. In both cases, before and after the change, “meat” is defined to exclude fish. > > In any event, the point remains, in that many restaurants still have specials on fish on Fridays, year-round, and others have specials on fish during Lent, throughout the week. There may still be a practical reason for that, though: It might be impractical to have the specials _just_ on Fridays in Lent when it “means something”. I’m not Catholic, but the way I read the following sentence from **Justin\_Bailey’s** link is that meat on Fridays is not acceptable at all unless you do some other form of penance. “Every person 14 years of age or older must abstain from meat (and items made with meat) on all other Fridays of the year, unless he or she substitutes some other form of penance for abstinence.” ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/37 "2014-02-10T20:32:47Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And capybaras! > > [http://www.nysun.com/foreign/in-days-before-easter-venezuelans-tuck-into/11063/](http://www.nysun.com/foreign/in-days-before-easter-venezuelans-tuck-into/11063/) > [Capybara - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capybara) Well, when I was a kid back in New York, whenever St. Paddy’s Day happened to fall on a Friday, Bishop Mugavero invariably issued a decree that, this one time, it was okay to have corned beef and cabbage. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/38 "2014-02-10T20:46:30Z")
Human sacrifice would only be allowed when the wealthy and privileged in a community are not included in the pool of potential sacrifices. Think that I’m wrong? \*Sharia \*law calls for thieves hands to be cut off, yet there are no wealthy people in Iran or Saudi Arabia minus an appendage. China executed a number of drug addicts in the wake of Mao’s takeover in 1949, although none of the upper echelon of the Chinese Communist party. Jackson’s “_Lottery_” would only work until it became clear that the “important” people in the community were excluded or could become victims. It would then either be discontinued; or it would become a ceremonial, rather than a practical, ritual. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/39 "2014-02-10T21:43:09Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > But this ritual takes place in (or has recently taken place in) other communities as well. The state police must know about this. Even in the 1940’s, when this was published, there were cases of lynching which went unpunished, because that was “how things were done”. I think this falls under the same category. Institutional racism held sway in entire states in the Deep South, true. But it’s clear that the Lottery is much more localized, and is already being dropped in other nearby communities. Not quite analogous. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883/40 "2014-02-10T23:41:00Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Huh? > > What’s so bad about no meat on Fridays? Er… Nothing, I guess, it just seems strange to define “fish” as “not meat.” Never mind. I had honestly thought it had been repealed along with the Latin Mass. Ya un-learn somethin’ every day… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lottery-is-it-realistic/680883.md?page=3)