# The Lunatic Fringe is now up to 23% of the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 25, 2023, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100 "2023-10-25T18:47:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/1 "2023-10-25T18:47:31Z")
How has this gotten so bad? This feels a lot like the path to fascism. > Nearly a quarter of Americans (23%) agree that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country,” according to the survey. This is up from 15% in 2021. > **[More Americans say they support political violence ahead of the 2024 election](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208373493/political-violence-democracy-2024-presidential-election-extremism)** > > Nearly a quarter of Americans believe that "patriots may need to resort to violence to save the country" while an overwhelming majority think democracy is at risk in a new PRRI survey. Here is the Survey results: [PRRI](https://www.prri.org/research/threats-to-american-democracy-ahead-of-an-unprecedented-presidential-election/) Within this link is both the PDF of the findings and a webinar via YouTube. I’m going to watch the Webinar and report back probably. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/2 "2023-10-25T18:56:53Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > How has this gotten so bad? This feels a lot like the path to fascism. Oh, it is. I wish more Americans would wake up to this fact. Fortunately, some number of that 23% are people like my dad. At 92, he will spout a lot of this garbage, but he’s not going to be in the fray to contribute to the violence resulting from it. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/3 "2023-10-25T18:59:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > How has this gotten so bad? This feels a lot like the path to fascism. I’m pretty sure you’re being rhetorical here considering your responses in other threads, but the answer is an unending, decade(s) long propaganda barrage. We’ve had a growing tendency to use violent rhetoric, the “War on \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_” for some times, to the extent that it became a trope. Yet, if you declare War on something, then, to the masses, you must be willing to use force/violence to eliminate it, no? Then combine it with the Republican pulling the trope into their culture wars, especially in Regards to “Christian Values”, it has gotten uglier and more internal. As an example: > **[A History of the 'War on Christmas'](https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/11/29/the-war-on-christmas/)** > > How wishing people "Happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" came to be regarded as an act of war. So, for 2 decades at least Republican Christians have been told that they need to FIGHT for their rights, and that any compromise is not only wrong, but actively evil. And that leaves out members of the targeted communities in this war (LGBQT+, non-whites, and non-Christians) seeing direct attacks both physical and legal on their persons, who probably ALSO see a certain amount of violence to protect their rights as inevitable, and I’d be more surprised if the number isn’t growing. ETA - @puzzlegal sneaked in her response while I was typing this, but I would agree, that thankfully, a lot of the 23% are armchair warriors (due to age, inclination, etc) but that’s a (comparatively) small comfort at this point. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/4 "2023-10-25T18:59:59Z")
If you try the Webinar, it doesn’t really start for almost 12 minutes in. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > Fortunately, some number of that 23% are people like my dad. At 92, he will spout a lot of this garbage, but he’s not going to be in the fray to contribute to the violence resulting from it. But so many of the others are armed and dangerous. They’re probably stocking up on brown shirts. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/5 "2023-10-25T19:04:05Z")
I have long felt that some significant violence is unavoidable with the very long-term efforts made by Republicans. Their sense of entitlement is huge and they are losing a way of life they never really had but are convinced they should fight to get it back. The question becomes how the rest of us will handle it when it happens. With a citizenry that cares so little to learn about the forces at work intended to undermine our democracy, it’s anyone’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/6 "2023-10-25T19:05:19Z")
I wonder if, without the “true American patriots” phrase, the question might attract as many left wingers as right? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/7 "2023-10-25T19:07:20Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > But so many of the others are armed and dangerous. These are also people who claim they literally believe abortion is the murder of a helpless baby, yet they allowed those murders to continue until the prevention was done in a way that left them comfortably at home. They talk a lot, but don’t seem to have the stomach to go to jail for what they believe. My real worry is if they can commit violence without facing punishment. THAT I’m sure they’ll be happy to participate in. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/8 "2023-10-25T19:11:01Z")
Excellent and somewhat reassuring point. Probably a lot of the respondents are thinking in terms of someone needs to do someone, even if it means violently. But not themselves of course. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/9 "2023-10-25T19:22:05Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They talk a lot, but don’t seem to have the stomach to go to jail for what they believe. Yes. For some reason I was reminded of this GIF. ![](https://media.tenor.com/GvHEPSHFxfcAAAAM/fighting-dogs-dogs.gif) It’s a lot easier to be brave on the phone to a pollster or on a web site. It’s different when you’re talking about marching on riot police or the National Guard. Just the effort involved to go there is probably too much for most of those people. It’s disturbing enough that so many people support it philosophically, to the extent that I worry about people no longer politically supporting fair elections or democracy in general enough to ensure that those institutions stay intact over time. I would not read into it that millions of people will swarm in a ravening horde if they don’t like the way an election is going. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/10 "2023-10-25T19:29:25Z")
I think I’ve posted it on other threads, but … Having two political parties isn’t inherently, or doesn’t automatically have to be, the problem (though I would prefer more viable parties). Everything really did get dramatically worse when Newt Gingrich brazenly announced that the other side wasn’t a group of colleagues to be negotiated with and have dinner and drinks with; they were enemies to be treated as enemies, stopped at every opportunity, and crushed whenever possible. They were to be painted as evil and an existential threat to all that we hold sacred and the lives of ourselves and our children. They do that through horrid straw man arguments and dramatic, hyperbolic exaggerations of the other side’s positions. Because their audience lives in a nearly perfect information silo, they are vulnerable to this kind of misinformation and demagoguery. They literally don’t know any better. They take fearful people, make them ever more afraid, and then give them a laundry list of Bad Things That Democrats Do, and make them thoroughly terrified. And they’re totally made up. Then, they send their candidate out to say, “I, alone, can fix it.” It was a very long run of political Mutually Assured Destruction before that, but Newt … went nuclear when nobody else really had. He’s still doing it today, and his followers have taken pages straight out of his playbook. I’ve been a registered Independent for decades, but today’s Republican party is simply disgusting. **TL;DR:** “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.” --Republican Senator Lindsey Graham ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/11 "2023-10-25T19:36:09Z")
I just finishing reading Ryan Reilly’s _Sedition Hunters_ last night, and, man, it left me depressed. So, many of these fringies have so drunk the FlavorAde that I don’t know that they’ll ever be redeemable. It only takes a small fraction to be willing to actually take physical action (cf: January 6th), for there to be a real mess. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/12 "2023-10-25T19:38:15Z")
So I **was** a Cold War Hawk Young Republican, the other part of the change to the Republican Party I can’t understand is this pro-Russian/anti-Ukraine part of the Republicans. How are Republicans supporting Putin instead of being absolutely against this ex-Soviet Dictator. Rallying around the Ukraine defense to thwart Putin’s attempt to put the USSR back together again really blows my mind. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/13 "2023-10-25T19:42:09Z")
Seriously: > # “The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.” > > ― George Orwell, [1984](https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/153313) Like any religion, which the Republican part of the past has evolved into being with the new MAGA cult, a charismatic (and he is, to his people, even if I totally don’t get it) new prophet speaks the new gospel, and the past is dead to them. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/14 "2023-10-25T19:42:31Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > How are Republicans supporting Putin instead of being absolutely against this ex-Soviet Dictator. What are you talking about? Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. 🤬 Ninja’d by 10 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/15 "2023-10-25T19:43:46Z")
Which takes me back to, damn, people are stupid and willfully ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/16 "2023-10-25T19:46:09Z")
For any who aren’t familiar with [**the story**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment)), or haven’t seen the movie, may I recommend: > **[The Wave (1981 film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(1981_film))** > > The Wave is a made-for-TV movie directed by Alex Grasshoff, based on The Third Wave experiment put on by teacher Ron Jones to explain to his students how the German populace could accept the actions of the Nazi regime. It debuted October 4, 1981, and aired again almost two years later as an ABC Afterschool Special. It starred Bruce Davison as the teacher Ben Ross, a character based on Jones. > Ben Ross, a school social studies teacher, shows his class a film about the Holocaust. They question how ... I’m pretty sure you can watch it on YouTube, albeit maybe not at 1080p (doesn’t matter, though). It’s prophetic. It’s instructive. It’s important. It’s sickening. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/17 "2023-10-25T19:50:05Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I wonder if, without the “true American patriots” phrase, the question might attract as many left wingers as right? Have you seen any signs that this could be true? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/18 "2023-10-25T19:54:59Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > It’s prophetic. It’s instructive. It’s important. It’s sickening. Here’s the last part of the plot synopsis from the Wikipedia article: > The following day, Ross tells students that the Wave is a real youth movement taking place in schools all over the country. The movement’s leader will give a televised speech tomorrow. The eager Wave students gather to watch, only to be shown a film of Adolf Hitler leading a Nazi rally. Ross tell them that this is their leader and that the experiment proves how quickly a group can give up their individual beliefs. The stunned students throw away their armbands and leave. Robert, who has been given his first sense of belonging by the movement, is left in tears. Ross takes Robert away to comfort him. Now imagine that instead, people denounce what Ross said to be “fake news” and the movement continues to grow. Then you’ll understand how we got to be in the position we’re in. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/19 "2023-10-25T20:00:51Z")
Yeah. Trump didn’t/wouldn’t pull the plug, and the investment in the cult is _so_ deeply ingrained at this point, what we’d hear is simply: > [@](#): > > Trump: I lied. I know I lost fair and square. I stole highly classified documents and tried to overthrow the government. > > Trump supporter: No you didn’t! I’m not sure there’s any point of diminishing returns on creating fealty to a cult, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100/20 "2023-10-25T20:03:14Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I wonder if, without the “true American patriots” phrase, the question might attract as many left wingers as right? ⁢ I think the opposite. That’s exactly the phrase I think would turn off the left, because that sort of “true patriot” rhetoric is largely seen as a dogwhistle for the right. That said, I do think this question could catch some lefties regardless, based on the underlying concept. I’ve met many who think violence may be the only way to resolve the problem with the alt right. That these right wingers are increasingly wanting to violent, so we’ll have to be violent back. Then there’s Antifa. Their whole deal is to be like the Black Panthers. They want peace, and refuse to start a fight. But they want it know that, if you do get violent, they will fight back. I think the statement was designed to specifically find the right wingers, due to the “patriot” language. But I could see some lefties going along with it. It would precisely because of the violent right wingers that left wingers may also believe violence is/will be necessary. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-lunatic-fringe-is-now-up-to-23-of-the-us/992100.md?page=2)