# The Male Inequality Problem **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2025, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440 "2025-09-27T21:57:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2026, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1082 "2026-07-02T19:23:30Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they’re lying about all the women supposedly desperate for their attention. On the chance they’re not, those women must be getting something from the relationship. Or they think they are, at any rate. If what women are **actually** getting from their PUA “relationship partners” is manipulated, lied to, pressured, deceitfully exploited for sex, and made fun of behind their backs for being gullible dupes of the “alpha-male players”— **which are the selling-points that the abovementioned PUA leaders and spokesmen openly advertise for their “strategies”** —then ISTM that’s a different kettle of fish, ethically speaking. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I don’t watch _Survivor_. I’ve seen it once or twice. […] But from what I can see, the overall key to winning is popularity; get people into your alliance, and cut them loose when it will do you the most good. Lie, cheat, steal, do what it takes to win. I don’t want that attitude in my life. I don’t find it entertaining, and I don’t know why anyone else does. But millions of people do, enough to keep the show running for 50 seasons, I think. An important distinction that you seem to be overlooking here is that **everybody who appears on or watches _Survivor_ knows that the situation is an artificially constructed “reality TV” show, and that those are its rules of the game**. That’s significantly different from interacting with a stranger in real life who lies and manipulates in order to con you into doing something that you wouldn’t do if you knew what was actually going on. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > There’s a market for assholes. I won’t be part of it; who I am and how I treat people is important to me. But if someone else thinks that’s how to get what he wants in the world, and as long as he stays on the right side of the law, I’m not sure I’m in a position to say they’re wrong. Yeah, well, personally I don’t have a problem with saying that it is indeed ethically wrong for people to be jerks and assholes who deliberately deceive and disrespect others. But we can agree to disagree about that. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2026, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1083 "2026-07-02T20:16:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, he insisted that **he** had to mow the lawn because otherwise he might be perceived as a “deadbeat husband”: it’s part of what a man is “supposed” to do. There’s something I need to clear up here. I am hard pressed to think of any time in the last 25 years of marriage where I “insisted” Mrs. Odesio do one thing or another. I _asked_ her not to mow the lawn and explained why it bothered me. I asked once and never brought it up again. On the rare occasion I get home and she’s mowed the lawn, I thank her or compliment her on how nice it looks, and I move on. Does it still bother me? A little. (I suspect in a few years we’re going to have quite a row because I _will_ insist on what vehicle to purchase when I replace my current one. She picked her vehicle and I expect to pick mine.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2026, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1084 "2026-07-02T20:22:41Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > There’s something I need to clear up here. I am hard pressed to think of any time in the last 25 years of marriage where I “insisted” Mrs. Odesio do one thing or another. I _asked_ her not to mow the lawn and explained why it bothered me. I know, sorry, I was not trying to imply that you were personally deeply committed to this particular gender norm of _man-mows-lawn_! Your post made it very clear that you thought that particular reaction on your part was amusingly irrational and unjustified, and you were just offering an account of it as an example of how we all get somewhat brainwashed by societal expectations even when we don’t agree with them. I apologize if my condensed summary gave a misleading impression of how you actually felt about the issue. ---
**Author:** ![IkesAcolyte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ikesacolyte/32/19012_2.png) [@IkesAcolyte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IkesAcolyte)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2026, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1085 "2026-07-02T20:31:32Z")
I think “insisting” that you pick your personal vehicle is perfectly reasonable, especially since she picked her own. If it’s your car, and especially if you’re paying for it, you should buy whatever car you damn well please. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2026, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1086 "2026-07-02T22:28:54Z")
> [@IkesAcolyte](#): > > I think “insisting” that you pick your personal vehicle is perfectly reasonable, especially since she picked her own Presuming that it doesn’t cost more than the marriage can readily afford when a cheaper one would do the job, and that if the spouse is expected to sometimes ride in it they can do so reasonably comfortably. I presume that whatever she picked for her car met those criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2026, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1087 "2026-07-03T02:33:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, well, personally I don’t have a problem with saying that it is indeed ethically wrong for people to be jerks and assholes who deliberately deceive and disrespect others. But we can agree to disagree about that. I would call the deceit ethically wrong as well. There are other things I consider unethical which aren’t as strongly condemned as this is. Perhaps ‘vitriol’ was not the right word. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2026, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1088 "2026-07-04T13:26:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I think one source of confusion may be that @Robot_Arm, as he noted upthread, doesn’t know anything about PUA culture except from discussions here on the Dope. So he may be thinking of it as basically just a somewhat tone-deaf but largely innocuous “How To Charm Women” social-self-help type thing, which could appeal to well-intentioned but not dating-confident Doper-type decent guys. > > He may not have encountered the more prominent self-proclaimed spokesmen of PUA culture, like Roosh V and [Andrew Tate.](https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/europe/andrew-tate-pick-up-artists-b2363217.html) Those guys are not all that innocuous. > > > [@](#): > > > > It is more than six months since Tate and his brother Tristan were arrested in Romania […] > > > > The brothers’ videos proclaim them to be [“pick-up artists”](https://www.the-independent.com/voices/seduction-boot-camp-panorama-pick-up-artists-metoo-misogyny-a9148041.html), a term tied to an industry where men seek to cajole women into sleeping with them via charm and compliments, intricate mind games, as well as coercion and harassment. […] > > > > Videos _The Independent_ found of Tristan Tate, the younger of the siblings, show him teaching “pick-up artistry”. The 34-year-old boasts about being “one of the baddest playboys in the world” and an “elite level guy”, as well as speaking about how to sleep with virgins. > > > > In one clip, he explains he has multiple girlfriends who are all exclusive to him as he brags about women “who cry their eyes out if I stop speaking to them”. In his own words, “that is power”. My wife and I used to watch The Mystery Method on VH1 like 15 years ago or whenever it was on. Most of it seemed to involve teaching a bunch of dorks a framework for approaching and speaking to women. The reason PUA movement as a whole isn’t just Dale Carnegie for dating is that it fosters and promotes an extremely toxic male attitude. Even Andrew Tate may occasionally spout some pearls of wisdom on confidence. But it’s all made toxic by this undercurrent of anger. And quite frankly I don’t think it works. It works for the Tate brothers because they are rich, tall, work out all the time, and spend all their time self-promoting their a wealthy lifestyle of Bugattis and fancy homes. Anyone can attract women doing that. But an average guy isn’t going to suddenly attract women by acting like a jerk. And I guess that’s why what these guys are selling is so appealing. Because the average guy with his average physique and average income working his crappy job is not particularly attractive to most women. He’s presumably attractive to at least a few women. Probably not the sort of women men tend to fantasize over. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2026, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1089 "2026-07-04T16:10:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And I guess that’s why what these guys are selling is so appealing. Because the average guy with his average physique and average income working his crappy job is not particularly attractive to most women. He’s presumably attractive to at least a few women. Probably not the sort of women men tend to fantasize over. You’d think that an average guy would be attractive to some average women. I don’t think it was my physique or income holding me back in my twenties. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2026, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1090 "2026-07-04T16:20:22Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > You’d think that an average guy would be attractive to some average women. Indeed, they are. But remember, part of what the PUA merchants are selling to average guys is the belief that they deserve **better than average** women. And that using PUA strategies to con and game women will enable them get the 8’s and 9’s and 10’s that will impress other guys, instead of “settling for” a relationship with an average woman. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2026, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1091 "2026-07-04T16:27:28Z")
I would have been beyond thrilled in my twenties to have a relationship with an average woman. My fear of rejection and overall weirdness scared a lot of them off, I think. That was on me. My wife says that she thinks “weird” is one of the biggest compliments she can give. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1092 "2026-07-07T15:21:10Z")
Did you not date at all in high school or college? I always found “dating” a bit awkward. But I also started dating when I was about 16. So I got to figure out at least some of that awkwardness at a time when everyone is more or less just as awkward. One of the problems “late bloomers” have is most mature women don’t want to deal with an adult man who can’t figure out a bra strap if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1093 "2026-07-07T17:01:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Did you not date at all in high school or college? In my case, no, I did not. I had my first hookup when I was 29 and my first relationship when I was 30. And yes, I was painfully aware of how difficult it was to not have experience at that time. After that I came out as bi and was in a covid-era relationship for several years. After that relationship and covid ended I tried putting myself out there in straight spaces, but that didn’t lead to anything. Eventually I found my niche in the LGBTQ+ community and I’m very happy with my current relationship. It took a while to meet the right people. It’s hard for me to suggest to any individual what specifically to try (especially because a lot of conventional advice is outdated), except to keep an open mind and to keep improving oneself. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1094 "2026-07-07T17:51:27Z")
I didn’t go on my first date until I was 20. I had a girlfriend for a few months at 22, but we were a very bad match and it only went past one date because I was so desperate. Once we broke up she was dating again after a week or so. I would go on one date in the next year, and no more for about 4 years. That covered my 2 years in grad school, where I was rejected the only time I asked someone out. I wouldn’t be in another relationship until I was about to turn 30. It lasted a few months until she decided she didn’t want to be in a relationship after all. The breakup hit me harder than it should have due to my past lack of success dating. 9 months later I met my wife, who wasn’t scared off by someone being 30 with very little dating experience despite having been in two long term relationships herself. I never had problems with the few bra straps I dealt with. Take out the one ill-advised relationship my senior year of college and the dates I had before thirty could definitely be counted on my fingers. I only got past a first date twice before meeting my wife; both times it did go on for a few months. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1095 "2026-07-07T18:24:29Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > It’s hard for me to suggest to any individual what specifically to try (especially because a lot of conventional advice is outdated), except to keep an open mind and to keep improving oneself Also what works and doesn’t work is specific to the individual. It’s sort of like, “just ask her out” probably works well when you look like (or even better, are) Henry Cavill. Much like “Who want to sex Mutombo?!!” really only works when you are 7’2" basketball legend Dikembe Mutombo. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1096 "2026-07-07T18:50:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also what works and doesn’t work is specific to the individual. It’s sort of like, “just ask her out” probably works well when you look like (or even better, are) Henry Cavill. I don’t think my looks were ever the reason I got rejected, although I thought so from my teens through part of my twenties. My past history made me terrified of being rejected once again, and I’m sure most women could sense something wasn’t right. By my mid twenties I was completely broken. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1097 "2026-07-07T18:56:52Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also what works and doesn’t work is specific to the individual. It’s sort of like, “just ask her out” probably works well when you look like (or even better, are) Henry Cavill. Much like “Who want to sex Mutombo?!!” really only works when you are 7’2" basketball legend Dikembe Mutombo. Are you saying I shouldn’t ask for Taylor Swift’s phone number on my podcast? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1098 "2026-07-07T19:01:33Z")
Now that she’s married, that’d be tacky. A couple weeks ago you’d’ve been good to go though. Damn! Missed it by _that_ much. I’ll just leave this here … [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/PxuUkYiaUc8/maxresdefault.jpg "Sexual Harassment and You - Saturday Night Live") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuUkYiaUc8) ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1099 "2026-07-07T19:08:06Z")
I’m sure I’ve mentioned it on this thread already, but I was also not able to tell when a woman had interest unless she told me directly. The woman I dated before meeting my wife told me that she’d been dropping hints all over the place, but even in hindsight I couldn’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1100 "2026-07-07T19:30:10Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > I don’t think my looks were ever the reason I got rejected, although I thought so from my teens through part of my twenties. My past history made me terrified of being rejected once again, and I’m sure most women could sense something wasn’t right. By my mid twenties I was completely broken. I’ve seen a meme circulating graphing with a distribution curve how men vs women are attracted to the opposite sex. For men attracted to women it’s more of a flat bell-curve indicating we might be attracted to like 50 to 80% of women in any particular setting. For women it tends to be heavily skewed such that they tend to be attracted to a smaller percent. I don’t know if it’s true, but it sort of feels true anecdotally. Even in my wife’s podunk town, I’ll tend to find a fairly high number of women attractive. I don’t know that women look at a similar population of men and say “hey, half of those Applebee’s waiters are pretty cute!” I think what women find attractive in men tends to be a lot more complex and less quantifiable. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2026, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440/1101 "2026-07-07T19:57:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In some very real ways, the liberation promised by feminism has worked out to be somewhat one-sided. > > Again, though, most of the resistance to male liberation is internalized by men themselves. This is a great insight. Women renegotiated their contract with society while men keep renewing their old one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-male-inequality-problem/1023440.md?page=56)