# The mandatory "Million Dollar Challenge is a fraud" thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555 "2005-02-11T06:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SpaceDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spacedog/32/9932_2.png) [@SpaceDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceDog)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/21 "2005-02-11T20:02:31Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > **Spacedog** , your paranoia is misplaced. Real life and _X-Men_ comics rarely intersect. Awww, but my paranoia serves me so well the rest of the time. My original post ended with the line “Have you never read X-Men comics?” which I thought better of. You know, I’ve been thinking about what **RickJay** said above. OK, I’ll concede that you have a point, maybe there wouldn’t be any persecution. I think I was hoping the deep down most people didn’t buy JE and co and hence no rabid mobs. On reflection that’s not true. I think there might still be problems if there was a religious aspect to whatever power it might be. I’m hesitant to say something to the effect of “How would Jesus be treated if he returned today” but I guess I’ve just said it. I think you’d get quite a lot of interest from scientists, there are a few parapsychology departments, there’s one here in Edinburgh, around with staff who’d want to study real supernatural powers. They would study the ones that are already famous but they’ve decided, mostly, that they’re frauds. **PatriotX** makes a fair point that the government have been interested in this stuff before, they may still be. However your claimant might not want to be famous for many reasons, the people that are famous for “talking with dead” and so forth mostly want or need to be famous to keep the money rolling in. So, OK, perhaps no rabid mobs, no public witch-burnings but there are still reasonably valid reasons why someone with supernatural powers might not step forward and take the challenge. I’m not saying that this is evidence that there’s secret psychics out there, just stating that point 2 that **Musicat** made above isn’t a complete no-brainer. BUT there is **no** good reason I can see for someone in the public eye who already claims to be psychic (or whatever) not to take the Randi challenge. They should have to back up there statements and promises. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/22 "2005-02-11T20:08:28Z")
Oh, I think for sure certain legit people would be in for a world of trouble. If, for, example, the military believed they’d found someone who really could communicate with the dead, do you think they wouldn’t have all kinds of uses for that? Someone who could see the future? Someone who could read minds? They’d be quite the hot commodity, and I’m not at all sure their own wishes would be taken into consideration. The reason John Edwards isn’t in trouble may well be because he’s fake. The military has no interest in a guy who can perform cold readings: cold readings won’t help them extract information from dead enemy combatants. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/23 "2005-02-11T20:24:01Z")
> [@SpaceDog](#): > > It may not all be persecution but you’d better be prepared to pretty much sign away your life as you knew it, and probably that of your family too. Fear of fame, eh? It doesn’t seem to keep many from buying lottery tickets. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/24 "2005-02-11T20:36:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m honestly a little confused as to why anyone is claiming this. > > You’ve heard of John Edward, haven’t you? The guy has a TELEVISION SHOW where he exhibits the power to speak to dead people. Yes, but he’s not for real. It’s just an act. We’re talking about people with genuine abilities. ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/25 "2005-02-11T20:37:31Z")
I am psychic, but I refuse to take the test because if I do, I have foreseen that the world will end in a state of pink fluffy goo! Oh, crap, I hope I haven’t said too much… I am also curious as to why this challenge is a fraud. Regardless of the “tough” conditions, if you’re psychically-abled or whatever, passing them should be a piece of cake. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/26 "2005-02-11T20:38:34Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > **Spacedog** , your paranoia is misplaced. Real life and _X-Men_ comics rarely intersect. Except that Professor Xavier I had back in college. He wasn’t in a wheelchair. But, he had lost his hair to a fever in his twenties. And if the whole class did well on a test, he would reward us by sitting down, furrowing his brow, putting his fingertips on his temples and saying “To me, my X-men!” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/27 "2005-02-11T20:42:13Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Fear of fame, eh? It doesn’t seem to keep many from buying lottery tickets. Yeah, but they can’t actually see the future, so they’re making less informed decisions. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/28 "2005-02-11T20:45:46Z")
Yay! The good doctor is here! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/29 "2005-02-11T21:00:25Z")
> [@SpaceDog](#): > > The standard argument here is the fact that _both_ parties have to agree allows the testing side to prevent any test they think an applicant would pass. Because the test must be fair many applicant argue that the changes made to make the test fair were if fact made to ensure their failure. I think the JREF is a Catch-22. Randi expects people to perform their paranormal abilities on demand. IMHO, those who claim this ability _are_ frauds and have no chance at passing the tests while those who cannot perform on demand have also have no chance at passing. The only one who can win is Randi himself. ---
**Author:** ![Greenback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/2bfe46/32.png) [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/30 "2005-02-11T21:02:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m honestly a little confused as to why anyone is claiming this. > > You’ve heard of John Edward, haven’t you? The guy has a TELEVISION SHOW where he exhibits the power to speak to dead people. Now, it’s phony, but that doesn’t matter. People believe it; they really, honestly, truly, no-shitting-you think John Edward can talk to their dead relatives. Insofar as the majority of the population is concerned, John Edward’s psychic powers are absolute fact. There’s nothing more to be proven. “Fairly famous”? He’s EXTREMELY famous right now. > > There are thousands if not millions of people running around saying they have psychic powers. Randi himself has said he’s convinced that a lot of the people who apply for the test really do believe it themselves. Being worried about fame does not appear to be a problem for a lot of folks. > > Why would Edward passing the Randi test change anything? The simple truth is that the people who believed him before would still believe him, and those who don’t would probably say the test must have gone awry. Edward would have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. He doesn’t need the money and any failure would negatively affect his marketability. Similarly, I am considered wise and/or smart until I open my mouth or type a post and prove otherwise. Then what am I? I lose credibility and, like it or not, Edward seems to have credibility (I really want to put a rolleyes smiley here but this _is_ GD). Another question is: Why would anyone (Randi or other) think that $1 million would be enough to bring out the psychics? Continuing to use Edward type power but referring to someone in obscurity: If they could communicate with another realm. If the dead truly did speak with them. If they knew that death is not the end, wouldn’t that change all their priorities to the point that $1 million wouldn’t appeal to them? They would know what could and could not pass over to the other side and their values would reflect as much. Maybe I am just talking out of my ass here and I don’t think that’s enough for that million bucks. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/31 "2005-02-11T21:03:38Z")
Randi expects people to perform their paranormal abilities on demand. IMHO, those who claim that they can perform on demand _are_ frauds and have no chance at passing the tests while those who make no such claim also have no chance at passing. The only one who can win is Randi himself. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/32 "2005-02-11T21:05:30Z")
Re Persecution While Van Praagh, Edward, Browne etc are frauds a lot of people believe them to be real. It’s a big enough sample for any actual psychic to judge public reaction. Some religious groups will denounce you. Some people will want to burn you at the stake. Most people want to give you money and talk to their dead relatives. Re The Government This is a more valid objection. But, the US government seems to have treated the scientists working on the Manhattan Project pretty well. They all had mental abilities deemed vital to national security. If the government were to snatch up a psychic who won the challenge, their life wouldn’t be that bad. Certainly, they would undergo every medical test known to man. However, they would also receive full medical and dental coverage, all kinds of perks, and the same level of protection given the President. Re Religious Objections I don’t really see this one. If the psychic believes that their abilities are a divine gift, passing the test would be an opportunity to prove the existence of that deity and spread the message to a massive audience. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/33 "2005-02-11T21:09:22Z")
Have some applicants withdrawn over a dispute on test conditions? If so, I’d be surprised if they didn’t say why. Any cites? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/34 "2005-02-11T21:12:47Z")
> [@Greenback](#): > > If they could communicate with another realm. If the dead truly did speak with them. If they knew that death is not the end, wouldn’t that change all their priorities to the point that $1 million wouldn’t appeal to them? They would know what could and could not pass over to the other side and their values would reflect as much. > . That argument has been made before. It has a major flaw. Even if the psychic has no desire for personal wealth, a million dollar donation would help a lot of charities. **Lute Skywatcher** Again, the psychic agrees to the conditions of the tests. Including a dry run before hand so that the psychic can be sure that their powers are working and are not interfered with by the environment. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/35 "2005-02-11T21:17:46Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Randi expects people to perform their paranormal abilities on demand. IMHO, those who claim that they can perform on demand _are_ frauds and have no chance at passing the tests while those who make no such claim also have no chance at passing. The only one who can win is Randi himself. And this leaves who? Are you suggesting that there are people who have such abilities but can’t perform “on demand?” Cite? Also, how does Randi “win” anything if people fail the test? It’s not his money and he makes no economic prifit from people failing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/36 "2005-02-11T21:20:14Z")
[Of interest.](http://www.skepticreport.com/tools/topjref.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/37 "2005-02-11T21:22:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Again, the psychic agrees to the conditions of the tests. Including a dry run before hand so that the psychic can be sure that their powers are working and are not interfered with by the environment. Yes, I know. They still have to perform on demand and I just don’t think that’s possible. Bear in mind that I’ve experienced some psychic phenomena myself. If it were possible for me to have such phenomena on demand, I’d be getting rich off some lottery. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/38 "2005-02-11T21:29:58Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And this leaves who? Are you suggesting that there are people who have such abilities but can’t perform “on demand?” Cite? No cite, just personal experience. See above. > [@](#): > > _Also, how does Randi “win” anything if people fail the test? It’s not his money and he makes no economic prifit from people failing._ Randi has made a career out of exposing frauds but perhaps “win” isn’t the right word. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/39 "2005-02-11T21:40:29Z")
What “personal experience?” Be specific. What happened to you that has no natural explanation? Whatever you think happened, I can state with absolute confidence that it was nothing paranormal. There is no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/40 "2005-02-11T21:55:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What “personal experience?” Be specific. What happened to you that has no natural explanation? From an earlier thread: > [@](#): > > Scoff if you want but I have had precognitive dreams, the last one I’m aware of when I was 18. You’re probably thinking that I misremembered those dreams but that’s not the case. > > I had just enlisted in the Navy and was waiting until it was time to go to Great Lakes. The closest I’ve ever been to the training facility at Great Lakes was the amusment park near Des Plaines yet my subconsious had somehow managed to create a copy of the inside of its barracks. I dreamed I was writing my name on some clothing, using a device I had never seen before. That was a pneumatic permanent marker and the clear plastic top to it rolled under my bunk. I looked under there but all I could find was dust. Sure enough, when I got to Great Lakes, the top to the marker rolled under my bunk and I couldn’t find it. Call it my actions being influenced by my subconscious but the fact remains that I dreamed two things - the inside of the barracks and the pneumatic markers - without ever having seen them beforehand. > [@](#): > > _Whatever you think happened, I can state with absolute confidence that it was nothing paranormal._ And I can state with absolute confidence that it was exactly what I said it was, which leaves us at an impasse. > [@](#): > > _There is no such thing._ Just because there’s no reliable test for something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555.md?page=3)