# The mandatory "Million Dollar Challenge is a fraud" thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555 "2005-02-11T06:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/141 "2005-02-14T03:15:59Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > Bull. What date did he “cancel” then? Randi & co unilaterally set a date and ORDERED him to comply. He did not agree to that date, and attempted to arrange a more convienient time. “The weekend is no go”. They set a date. He balked. Gave no further suggestion except a vauge “Maybe after Christmas”. Now, according to KRAMER. Mr. Carey insisted that he could be tesed “at any time”. [QUOTE] > [@](#): > > then failed to respond in time for a second. [/'quote] > > bull. He was REFUSED a second. For the record, I read Mr. Carey’s “the wekend is a no go” as a refusal of a first date. However, what I failed to see was any suggestion for alternative date from him. Again, this man put them through a lot, and then balked. There is no requirement that ‘Randi & Co.’ have limitless patience with this guy. > [@](#): > > grow up Look Peter, you brought this guy up and one major factor in this is the man’s impatience and taunting. KRAMER makes that quite clear. > [@](#): > > read my previous message. Mr. Carey said nothing about wanting to win with only 2 out of 5. This is a complete invention on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/142 "2005-02-14T03:16:30Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > cite? > > The information provided by JREF sdays the protocol was worked out between the Irish Skeptics and Randi. They don’t mention thae applicant was being a part of it. > [@](#): > > The test date has been confirmed, and an excellent, simple test protocol has been devised by Irish Skeptics based upon their communications with the applicant, whom we have yet to receive confirmation from. The correspondence file is massive, but now that we have a protocol, an eerie silence has descended… I gues I made a mistake. The protocol was worked out with the applicant but then he refused to confirm it. This applicant seemed to do quite a bit of foot dragging and excuse making all along the line. At one point he said that he had not replied to an email sent by the Irish skeptics because they did not provide him with an email address. I find it hard to believe that anyone but a complete neophyte does not know how to reply to an email. His demand that JREF supply the receiver was absurd. He was just trying to give himself an excuse if he failed the test. If the receiver was supplied by JREF then how could the person be trusted to honestly write down any received messages? he wanted JREF to taint the procedure. The only way for the test to be fair to both parties was for Mr. Carey to provide his own “reciever” and thuis eliminate any possibility of deliberate tanking by a JREF stooge. Collusion would not be a concern because any receiver brought in by the applicant would have no way of knowing the sentences beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/143 "2005-02-14T03:17:16Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > Well, if you would remove the hands from your eyes… grow up. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/144 "2005-02-14T03:19:44Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > so, even to a fanatic as obsessive as Princhester, Kramer’s actions seemed unreasonable and incomprehensible. I’ll let **Princhester** speak for himself, thank you. Not **Princhester** by way of **Peter Morris**. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/145 "2005-02-14T03:23:10Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > “Paul Carey applied for the Challenge several months ago,” -KRAMER Your link. Oh, so those several months fell between the 16th and 27th, did they? > [@](#): > > The protocol was given on the 16th, and was for a date on the 27th. He was required to confirm by the 20th Mr. Carey dropped the ball. That is an unreasonablly short notice period. If you can’t see that, there’s no point in trying to explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/146 "2005-02-14T03:47:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I gues I made a mistake. The protocol was worked out with the applicant but then he refused to confirm it. Where does this information come from? Based on the information provided by the JREF, he had no part in working out the protocol. He was simply told the protiocol that Randi and the Irish skeptics had worked out togrther. He was ordered to accept within 1 day or have his claim closed. Where does it say he was allowed to participate in working out the protocol? > [@](#): > > This applicant seemed to do quite a bit of foot dragging and excuse making all along the line. At one point he said that he had not replied to an email sent by the Irish skeptics because they did not provide him with an email address. I find it hard to believe that anyone but a complete neophyte does not know how to reply to an email. Yeah? I’ve received plenty of email with crap in the return address. Hitting reply just bounces back. Usually, it’s done by spammers to prevent replies. Quite often it’s done accidently by normal people who expect a reply, then get upset if they don’t get one. > [@](#): > > His demand that JREF supply the receiver was absurd. He was just trying to give himself an excuse if he failed the test. If the receiver was supplied by JREF then how could the person be trusted to honestly write down any received messages?. Or maybe he was trying to avoid Randi’s accusation of cheating if he succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/147 "2005-02-14T04:00:47Z")
How could he cheat by bringing his own receiver? A receiver provided by JREF would automatically invalidate the test. How could JREF possibly agree to a condition that would invalidate the test? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/148 "2005-02-14T04:24:03Z")
Peter, you keep repeating he had “one day to accept the challenge” when we have documented evidence that A) He had FOUR days, not one, and B) He claimed, repeatedly, that he was ready for testing “anytime,” and C) He offered no alternative dates, and in fact has done absolutely nothing to help make the test happen. Now you’re claiming Randi asking him to provide a receiver was unreasonable, despite the stupefyingly obvious fact that THE ONLY WAY THE TEST CAN BE RUN FAIRLY IS FOR CAREY TO PROVIDE THE RECEIVER. You’re going to just accuse Randi of cheating no matter what, even if it means you have to claim things that are not true. We get it; you hate him. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/149 "2005-02-14T05:14:40Z")
So what we have here, at worst, is a case of the Randi organization being less than totally patient with a guy who was trying his best to complicate matters. What does this prove, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/150 "2005-02-14T05:39:15Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > . . . eddies in the space-time continuum . . . Who’s Eddy, and what’s he doing in the space-time continuum? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/151 "2005-02-14T08:16:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > If someone claims to be able to predict the order a deck of cards will be shuffled into one time out of 1000, which is not very often, but still far greater than chance, then that ability can be tested (although it will take a long time and be boring). It’s unlikely that Kramer would have the patience for this. He’d probably turn you down. If it ain’t quick’n’easy, JREF probably won’t test for it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/152 "2005-02-14T08:19:53Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > It is very important to note that those rules are designed _by both parties_ Actually Musicat, they must be agreed to by both parties. They are usually designed by JREF. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/153 "2005-02-14T08:28:32Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > This experiment design doesn’t exactly increase my faith in Randi. I can’t imagine that six trials on 6 people can prove anything statistically significant although this depends somewhat on the “healer’s” claims. Well I agree in this way: if they _had_ passed it wouldn’t have been too convincing, because the odds of them passing by luck weren’t that long. But surely that just makes the converse (which is what happened) all the more telling. > [@](#): > > More importantly, the degree to which the healer is convinced of his own power might very well contribute to any possible placebo effect. This is relevant how? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/154 "2005-02-14T08:30:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have an idea. > > Rather than **Peter Morris** saying that Randi is inflexible, and others saying, “No, he isn’t,” why don’t we approach it this way: **Peter Morris** , suggest a protocol that strikes YOU as a fair trial for a given ability. > > In other words, describe a paranormal ability, and then describe what sort of test would be fair. Not possible. There are too many different types of claim. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/155 "2005-02-14T08:33:32Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > You are aware that the major failing of Randi is a determination to find nothing even if there is something, right? I’d be more convinced it was a failing if you were able to show that there was something. Given the singular lack of any convincing evidence of the paranormal, it seems less like a major failing and more an understandable position shaped by evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/156 "2005-02-14T08:45:10Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > Only a matter of time before he turns up in _this_thread. The significance being? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/157 "2005-02-14T09:21:49Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > From Paul Carey, we learn that Randi _doesn’t_ negotiate the test protocol, he dictates it. No part of the protocol is open to discussion - not even the time and location of the test. The applicant has to accept Randi’s demands, or not take the test at all. Carey’s rudeness doesn’t alter that basic fact. My opinion of the JREF, and Kramer in particular, is hardening. Kramer specifically doesn’t got what it takes to do his job efficiently. He’s a hothead, and he gives people like Peter far, far too much ammunition by the immature and ultracombative approach he takes. There is no real evidence that JREF are much into negotiating protocols. Supporters of the JREF would do well to go over to the JREF boards and read through the challenges that have been written up by Kramer, and you will see that usually JREF just propose a protocol and that’s that. The protocol will usually be entirely fair, as far as it goes. JREF will not muck about much with indulging weirdass requirements however. Complaints from challengers that proposed protocols are unfair are rare. Actually, I can’t think of any examples that have any real substance to them. Usually, the supposed paranormal power will be something that the JREF has seen before, I guess. I think this tends to lead to Randi/Kramer already having a testing method in mind, and they just propose that and then see little or no need to change anything to accommodate the wishes of a particular claimant. As I’ve said, I’ve never seen an example of this being a real problem. However, it does lead to much ill will because Kramer in particular is arrogant and abrupt. As a challenger, questioning anything or suggesting any changes can quickly lead to Kramer misinterpreting your motives, assuming you are trying “put one over him” and so on. And Kramer will get defensive and start abusing you very quickly if you muck about. The Carey thing is a good example. One doesn’t really know the full exchange. I see precious little evidence that Carey wasn’t in agreement with the protocol, or that he didn’t agree the date prior to then pulling out. Certainly, despite him being entirely free to post whatever he wanted to on the JREF forum, he didn’t suggest that he disagreed with the proposed protocol in any substantial way, and he didn’t seem over keen on getting right down to it and setting dates and committing to them. I think he was/is a silly bint, who stuffed Kramer and the Dublin skeptics round till they got jack of him. Kramer as usual fanned the flames, and did a good job of showing why he doesn’t have the very qualities that his job demands. I don’t see any fundamental problems with the challenge based on that episode. I do see evidence of the fairly unprofessional way the challenge is run. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/158 "2005-02-14T11:15:40Z")
Having not read that particular exchange, **Princh** , I have to agree that I wonder why the JREF don’t simply publicise the _general form_ of the testing regime that would be required to win the challenge: surely _every_ supposed ability **could** be cast in terms of a 10% probability of success, such that a day’s worth of multiple tests would almost certainly decide the matter once and for all in terms of statistical [significance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-value)? Applicants who claimed, for example, that they could supernaturally call a coin toss correctly 50.0001% of the time could thus be told that they must fund the necessary months/years of testing _themselves_, or else sod off. Then again, perhaps that would be to invite absurdly picayune pedantry regarding the exact words used therein, such that someone might claim success based on semantics strained way past breaking point. I still think it would allow prospective applicants to know where they stand. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/159 "2005-02-14T11:28:24Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > You are aware that the major failing of Randi is a determination to find nothing even if there is something, right? Actually, I don’t believe this to be the case; Randi has gone on record as saying that he would _dearly love_ to find some hard evidence of paranormal activity, simply because that would be an incredibly exciting discovery, well worth spending a million dollars to find. Do you suppose he is lying when he says this? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555/160 "2005-02-14T11:40:51Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > That is an unreasonablly short notice period. If you can’t see that, there’s no point in trying to explain it to you. Given that the man insisted he could be tested at any time, it was more than reasonable. The basic problem that you have with this is: 1. JREF does not have the patience of Job. 2. They took him at his work that he could be tested at any time. That is all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mandatory-million-dollar-challenge-is-a-fraud-thread/289555.md?page=9)