# The many benefits of keeping Muslims out of Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068 "2014-02-24T05:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/181 "2014-03-12T01:06:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You attempted to make a distinction between a “majority” and an “overwhelming majority” without setting any definitions in place. Based on the fact that I have seen no attitudinal survey of any Muslim community in Europe that differs from their non-Muslim fellow countrymen by more than single digit percentages, I maintain that “overwhelming majority” is the apt description of Muslims who are assimilating in Europe. One can find extreme views among small clusters of people in any community. If those numbers amount to fewer than 10% of that population, I consider the majority view to be overwhelming. Were you able to look at the survey of British Muslims that I linked to? What are your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/182 "2014-03-12T01:54:10Z")
There are many possible reasons for a country to be poor or unsuccessful, nor do I think cherishing conformity is the sign of a superior culture. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/183 "2014-03-12T02:19:24Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > There are many possible reasons for a country to be poor or unsuccessful, nor do I think cherishing conformity is the sign of a superior culture. I stated that there is good empirical evidence and theoretical models that suggest cultural values(collectivist vs individualist for instance) determine success. Your comeback to that is that there are many possible reasons for countries to be poor or unsuccessful? That makes no sense to me. And you may not think that cherishing conformity is a sign of a ‘superior’(your word, not one that I would use) culture, but in point of fact, you probably take conformity of values as a given. Or do you not believe that wanting equality for women is a sign of a ‘superior’ culture? That wanting people to be able to speak freely against religion without fear of punishment is a sign of a ‘superior’ culture? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/184 "2014-03-12T04:15:40Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Were you able to look at the survey of British Muslims that I linked to? What are your thoughts? I think that Britain, with more more Muslim immigrants from areas that are more Fundamentalist, to begin with, probably experiences the worst case scenario for Muslim immigration. Then I look at the numbers in the various Pew and Gallup and related surveys and I figure that if that is the worst case scenario, the doomsayers are being hopelessly silly. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/185 "2014-03-17T01:21:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You attempted to make a distinction between a “majority” and an “overwhelming majority” without setting any definitions in place. Based on the fact that I have seen no attitudinal survey of any Muslim community in Europe that differs from their non-Muslim fellow countrymen by more than single digit percentages, I maintain that “overwhelming majority” is the apt description of Muslims who are assimilating in Europe. One can find extreme views among small clusters of people in any community. If those numbers amount to fewer than 10% of that population, I consider the majority view to be overwhelming. > > It would appear that your actual point was to promote fear of Islam or Muslims even when the proponents of radical/Fundamentalist/Salafist Islam are a minuscule (if loud) minority of the Muslim population in Europe. Unless you provide serious numbers instead of staged YouTube events, I dismiss your claims as unsupported. > > The Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nation, (The Tea Party 😉 ), and similar groups are loud in the U.S. None of them demonstrate that this country is in danger of being overrun by Right Wing extremists. So, too, Qureshi and his merry band of zealots fail to represent any movement by other Muslims in Europe to refuse to assimilate. You stretch your credibility to nothing when you fabricate this equivalency. There are 200,000 Muslims in Norway. The video shows many hundreds of them [publicly expressing support for the death penalty for homosexuals and adulterers.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bV710c1dgpU#t=242) That is a large fraction of one percent of all Norwegian Muslims right there in that hall. And your comparison is to the Klan and Aryan Nations, which are disorganized group of mentally ill fetishists, and a prison gang, respectively, and the\* Tea Party\*? Pat Buchanan bitching about Ellen is no comparison dude. An American equivalent would be a million people on the national mall chanting ‘God hates fags’ in honor of Fred Phelps. Get real. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/186 "2014-03-17T01:48:37Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > And your comparison is to the Klan and Aryan Nations, which are disorganized group of mentally ill fetishists, and a prison gang, respectively, and the\* Tea Party\*? At least get your facts straight. The Klan is anything but disorganized, and the [Aryan Nations](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/groups/aryan-nations) isn’t a prison gang, you’re confusing them with the [Aryan Brotherhood.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Brotherhood) > [@](#): > > An American equivalent would be a million people on the national mall chanting ‘God hates fags’ in honor of Fred Phelps. Speaking of stretching one’s credibility to nothing with fabricated equivalency, you think a million people is a large fraction of one percent of the members of the Westboro Baptist Church? So total membership would be over 100 million; I hate to break it to you, current membership is [~40](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/187 "2014-03-17T02:22:47Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > You stretch your credibility to nothing when you fabricate this equivalency. > > There are 200,000 Muslims in Norway. The video shows many hundreds of them [URL=“[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player\_detailpage&v=bV710c1dgpU#t=242](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bV710c1dgpU#t=242)”]publicly expressing support for the death penalty for homosexuals and adulterers. No, it does not. It shows a hall full of people watching but it’s hardly clear there are “many hundreds” of them or that they’re all Muslims or even all from Norway, since it’s conducted entirely in English. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/188 "2014-03-17T03:33:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, it does not. It shows a hall full of people watching but it’s hardly clear there are “many hundreds” of them or that they’re all Muslims or even all from Norway, since it’s conducted entirely in English. At 5:09 the speaker asks how many go to normal Sunni mosques in Norway, and hundreds raise their hands. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/189 "2014-03-17T03:42:16Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > You stretch your credibility to nothing when you fabricate this equivalency. > > There are 200,000 Muslims in Norway. The video shows many hundreds of them [publicly expressing support for the death penalty for homosexuals and adulterers.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bV710c1dgpU#t=242) That is a large fraction of one percent of all Norwegian Muslims right there in that hall. Ooooh! Three quarters of a percent of the Norwegian Muslim population show up at a rally and some large number of them display homophobia. (There appear to be about 1,500 or fewer people in the hall.) From that you want to extrapolate that there are very large numbers of Muslims throughout Europe who favor those sorts of laws even though the Muslim populations in most of Europe have already been polled and surveyed without getting close to 10% favoring such laws. So, you might be right that Muslim immigrants to Norway–who are a tiny minority of Muslims in Europe–tend to be radicalized Fundamentalists. (Or you might just have all the most extreme Fundamentalists in Norway in that hall, making the percentage even smaller.) However, you have done nothing to demonstrate that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in France, Germany, Spain, Italy, and even Great Britain disagree with them. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > An American equivalent would be a million people on the national mall chanting ‘God hates fags’ in honor of Fred Phelps. > > Get real. Bring some genuine numbers instead of hysteria over an edited YouTube video and I will take your appeal under consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/190 "2014-03-17T03:55:13Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > There are 200,000 Muslims in Norway. Well they’re bound to take over just about any time soon. The population of Norway is, what, 5 million and change ? How could they possibly resist such dramatic pressure ? Hold on, Muslims are not the naked oily ones with the red capes, are they ? (sidenote : I actually never realized it was such a tiny country. Its size is confusing. I mean Jesus, that’s half the population of Paris’ inner city alone, and they get 150 thousand square miles to stretch it over ? OK, they’re miles and miles of depressing frozen icehell, but still. Greedy bastards :).) ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/191 "2014-03-17T04:20:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > (sidenote : I actually never realized it was such a tiny country. Its size is confusing. I mean Jesus, that’s half the population of Paris’ inner city alone, and they get 150 thousand square miles to stretch it over ? OK, they’re miles and miles of depressing frozen icehell, but still. Greedy bastards :).) Population desities are funny things. All of Australia holds only about 20 million and change people. Delhi alone has more people than that. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/192 "2014-03-17T04:39:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well they’re bound to take over just about any time soon. The population of Norway is, what, 5 million and change ? How could they possibly resist such dramatic pressure ? > > Hold on, Muslims are not the naked oily ones with the red capes, are they ? > > (sidenote : I actually never realized it was such a tiny country. Its size is confusing. I mean Jesus, that’s half the population of Paris’ inner city alone, and they get 150 thousand square miles to stretch it over ? OK, they’re miles and miles of depressing frozen icehell, but still. Greedy bastards :).) What are the justifications for increasing their numbers significantly in Norway? It seems they are overrepresented in s8xual assault cases. Does suggest you should be adopting a more cautious approach? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/193 "2014-03-17T05:48:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well they’re bound to take over just about any time soon. The population of Norway is, what, 5 million and change ? How could they possibly resist such dramatic pressure ? > > Hold on, Muslims are not the naked oily ones with the red capes, are they ? Yeah, let’s get all Jon Stewart Gen X jokey about the whole thing. You know, to make sure we don’t look uncool or anything. That’s original. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/194 "2014-03-17T06:11:10Z")
Huh. So you’re not even bothering to ad hominem the poster, you’re settling for poo-pooing the _style_ of the argument to handwave it away ? That’s… new, I guess. I’m sure it’s very convincing to everyone of our readers, but unclear as to how I should respond to that. Oh, I know ! _fart noise_ ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/195 "2014-03-17T06:58:46Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > It is way too late to keep Muslims out of Europe now, you know. There are lots of them here already. Most are perfectly good citizens (like most of the non-Muslims). …and that’s the core of the matter. It’s the industrious and hard-working people you want, and what matter if they are Druids or something? I hereby ask Muslim Dopers–isn’t there high-minded counsel in the Quran? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/196 "2014-03-17T08:13:51Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > What are the justifications for increasing their numbers significantly in Norway? > > It seems they are overrepresented in s8xual assault cases. Does suggest you should be adopting a more cautious approach? Yeah, that’s the kind of comment that **really** needs a cite. In the particular case of Norway, it’s worth mentioning that this is an incredibly wealthy country basically swimming in oil money. Unemployment is around 2%, and thousands of people from Sweden - itself one of the world’s wealthiest countries - move to Norway to work. The justification for increasing the numbers of migrants - and Muslims, by extension - is the same as in any other booming country. Just like with the British immigration boom of the 60s and 70s, or the Spanish one last decade. Also, using the video of that conference as evidence of anything doesn’t seem too convincing to me. I mean, how much do we know about the organisation of the conference? Did everyone who was there agree with the speaker? I’ve gone to many conferences and speeches by people with whom I disagreed. If I were a Muslim in Norway, I’d be tempted to go to **any** Muslim act just as a simple way of socialising with people like me. Finally: there are not 200,000 Muslims in Norway. According to official data they’re closer to [half that number](http://folk.uio.no/leirvik/tekster/IslamiNorge.html#statistikk). Out of those, a total of 0 have killed 71 people in a terrorist attack. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/197 "2014-03-17T11:17:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > (sidenote : I actually never realized it was such a tiny country. Its size is confusing. I mean Jesus, that’s half the population of Paris’ inner city alone, and they get 150 thousand square miles to stretch it over ? OK, they’re miles and miles of _ **depressing frozen icehell** _, but still. Greedy bastards :).) This is actually the most offensive thing in the thread so far. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/198 "2014-03-17T14:09:26Z")
Happy frozen icehell? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/199 "2014-03-17T14:17:31Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > This is actually the most offensive thing in the thread so far. Depressing frozen icepurgatory? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/200 "2014-03-17T14:54:09Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It seems they are overrepresented in s8xual assault cases. Does suggest you should be adopting a more cautious approach? It suggests to me that people be charged with actual crimes; wtf is s8xual assault? Does looking at too much pr0n make you want to raep people, so the 1337 police charge you with s8xual assault? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=11)