# The many benefits of keeping Muslims out of Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068 "2014-02-24T05:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/41 "2014-02-26T17:25:38Z")
Immigration in Europe follows a different pattern from the US. The US is a country founded on immigration. Most often a one way ticket from the old country to a new life, often obtaining a new identity in the process. The American dream was a compelling proposition for many people fleeing poverty and persecution. In Europe there were no such grand ideals involved, just political and economic expediency. Immigration was a device to solve a labour shortage. Once the devastated economies of Europe began to grow, there was a massive labour shortage across much of western Europe. Given that many western European countries had colonies, that is where they recruited a labour. The UK advertisements were placed in newspapers across the English speaking Caribbean and Africa for workers for 5 year contracts to work for the railways, the buses, the London underground. Then to India and Pakistan to recruit textile workers from the cotton producing areas. Some were Hindu, many were Muslim. France looked to its nearest colony, Algeria for an immigrant workforce. During the long and bloody battle for Algerian independence huge numbers of refugees crossed the Mediterreanean to France. These were a mixture of French settlers and others who feared persecution for their association with the French colonial authorities. This accounts the bulk of the Muslim population in France. Germany, lost its colonies and was itself split in two. West Germany invited Turkkish immigrants to fill its labour shortage. There is a similar story with other Western european nations. Predictably, this short term measure became long term and many immigrants settled in European countries and brought their families over. The economic boom of the sixties, gave way to economic recession and with it came a progressive tightening of immigration rules. There was also a lot of social issues to deal with. Having a lot of people from the other end of the world who look and talk differently and suddenly become your neighbour was a bit of a cultural shock. Throughout the 60s and 70s in the UK, there was a lot of agonising about what to do about the immigrant question. UK politicians looked to the US and saw just how inflamed racial tensions could get if the matter was not handled delicately. There was a cross party consensus to limit further immigration and pass laws to promote race relations. This got built into public policy and became the multiculturalism we see today. This addressed the civil rights issue. No-one wanted the Hell that the US was going through. From the perspective of the immigrant communities it looked rather different. Unlike the US, there was not that compelling proposition to join the broad American middle class if you work hard and prosper. There was no British dream to entice immigrant communities to integrate. There was, however, a free state education system and ambitious immigrants tried their darnedest to encourage their kids to get a good university education and join one of the professions or go into business. Or they worked for big state employers like the National Health Service. How integrated they become, depends to a large extent on the cultural background. There is the familiar pattern of the first generation earning some money and making a big show of it on their visits to the old country often building a big house. The second generation getting educated and reluctantly going on holidays to the old country. The third generation thinking ‘what is the point, I have nothing in common with these people’. How soon this happens depends on how socially mobile they are. Some communities who went together from some small village in the cotton areas of India or Pakistan to another village in Yorkshire or Lancashire can be quite insular. This was were some of the UK born bombers came from. Socially isolated and marginalised, they were an easy target for religious radicals recruiting fighters angered and enraged by the war that the West visited upon their ancestral home. It has taken a while for the authorities to deal with this threat and I don’t doubt that the intelligence services get a lot of information from the mosques. The Muslim communities in the UK are very fearful that all they have worked for is threatened by some sections of disaffected youth who dream of becoming a great Rambo for their religion. That phase of ‘British Commonwealth’ mass immigration is now past. Most immigration into the UK is from the countries of the EU and it is quite different, because the cost of coming to the UK is just a cheap air ticket. People go back and forth all the time, in a similar way to how people move around within the US. This is less of an issue, maybe because they don’t look much different. I cannot see any evidence of a great cultural clash with Muslims in Europe… We have been there…done that…back in the Age of Empires. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/42 "2014-02-26T17:33:42Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > This is an interesting dynamic. I’ve noticed at the grocery store mothers will be covered head to toe, while their teenaged daughters (I assume duaghters) are wearing American clothes, or if not that, hijabs. (With the face exposed.) > > I’ve often wondered what those conversations must be like when the teenaged girl asks her parents if she can wear western style clothing. > > People often ask “Where are the moderate Muslims?” Well, there they are, right there under your nose. May not be much of a conversation. The mothers may simply be wearing what they are used to and comfortable with, and may not have any real objections to more revealing attire. Like, if you moved to a country where men regularly wore tight jogging shorts, you’d probably never really feel comfortable in them. But you wouldn’t be concerned if your son wore them. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/43 "2014-02-27T04:54:36Z")
Well, there seems to be considerable concern in European countries about Uganda’s new anti-gay laws and of course Russia’s ones which have prompted concern about the Sochi Games. The rights of gay and lesbian people under Islamic law or Sharia law are [generally not great](http://www.tribune-democrat.com/latestnews/x129174614/10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punishable-by-death): > [@](#): > > Here are the 10 countries where homosexuality may be punishable by death: > > Yemen: According to 1994 penal code, married men can be sentenced to death by stoning for homosexual intercourse. Unmarried men face whipping or one year in prison. Women face up to seven years in prison. > > Iran: In accordance with sharia law, homosexual intercourse between men can be punished by death, and men can be flogged for lesser acts such as kissing. Women may be flogged. > > Iraq: The penal code does not expressly prohibit homosexual acts, but people have been killed by militias and sentenced to death by judges citing sharia law. > > Mauritania: Muslim men engaging in homosexual sex can be stoned to death, according to a 1984 law. Women face prison. > > Nigeria: Federal law classifies homosexual behavior as a felony punishable by imprisonment, but several states have adopted sharia law and imposed a death penalty for men. A law signed in early January makes it illegal for gay people countrywide to hold a meeting or form clubs. > > Qatar: Sharia law in Qatar applies only to Muslims, who can be put to death for extramarital sex, regardless of sexual orientation. > > Saudi Arabia: Under the country’s interpretation of sharia law, a married man engaging in sodomy or any non-Muslim who commits sodomy with a Muslim can be stoned to death. All sex outside of marriage is illegal. > > Somalia: The penal code stipulates prison, but in some southern regions, Islamic courts have imposed Sharia law and the death penalty. > > Sudan: Three-time offenders under the sodomy law can be put to death; first and second convictions result in flogging and imprisonment. Southern parts of the country have adopted more lenient laws. > > United Arab Emirates: Lawyers in the country and other experts disagree on whether federal law proscribes the death penalty for consensual homosexual sex or only for rape. In a recent Amnesty International report, the organization said it was not aware of any death sentences for homosexual acts. All sexual acts outside of marriage are banned. Increasing Muslim populations appears to also lead to the Middle Eastern conflict being brought to Europe with [Jews being targeted in several countries](http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/I-see-no-future-for-Jews-in-the-Netherlands). Netherlands: > [@](#): > > Former Dutch EU commissioner says “recognizable” Jews are no longer safe in Netherlands due to Muslim anti-Semitism. [Sweden](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html) > [@](#): > > In 2009, a chapel serving the city’s 700-strong Jewish community was set ablaze. Jewish cemeteries were repeatedly desecrated, worshippers were abused on their way home from prayer, and “Hitler” was mockingly chanted in the streets by masked men. > > “I never thought I would see this hatred again in my lifetime, not in Sweden anyway,” Mrs Popinski told The Sunday Telegraph. > > “This new hatred comes from Muslim immigrants. The Jewish people are afraid now.” > … > The future looks so bleak that by one estimate, around 30 Jewish families have already left for Stockholm, England or Israel, and more are preparing to go. > > With its young people planning new lives elsewhere, the remaining Jewish households, many of whom are made up of Holocaust survivors and their descendants, fear they will soon be gone altogether. Mrs Popinski, an 86-year-old widow, said she has even encountered hostility when invited to talk about the Holocaust in schools. > > “Muslim schoolchildren often ignore me now when I talk about my experiences in the camps,” she said. “It is because of what their parents tell them about Jews. The hatreds of the Middle East have come to Malmo. Schools in Muslim areas of the city simply won’t invite Holocaust survivors to speak any more.” [France:](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/127076/the-very-real-jewish-exodus-from-france) > [@](#): > > To understand what’s happening, we have to go to the Jewish Centre on 86th Street where, in March 2012, the Jewish New Yorkers urged their French counterparts to commemorate the victims of the shooting in the “Ozar Hatorah” school in Toulouse, where the jihadist Mohammed Merah killed a rabbi and three children. > > Leading the ceremony was Zachary, 29, a transport manager from Strasbourg. “If New York is full of French Jews- he explains- it’s because in 2002, in connection with the second Palestinian Intifada, a season of physical aggression began towards us from the Arabs that still hasn’t stopped. It just brought the conflict from the Middle East onto our streets.” ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/44 "2014-02-27T05:09:24Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > …I cannot see any evidence of a great cultural clash with Muslims in Europe… Interesting post, although in terms of attitudes there are some pretty glaring issues according to [Pew Attitude surveys](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/)and examples above, not to mention issues in the UK like [these in London](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8570506/Police-covered-up-violent-campaign-to-turn-London-area-Islamic.html): > [@](#): > > The claims come as four Tower Hamlets Muslims were jailed for at least 19 years for attacking a local white teacher who gave religious studies lessons to Muslim girls. > > The Sunday Telegraph has uncovered more than a dozen other cases in Tower Hamlets where both Muslims and non-Muslims have been threatened or beaten for behaviour deemed to breach fundamentalist “Islamic norms.” > > One victim, Mohammed Monzur Rahman, said he was left partially blind and with a dislocated shoulder after being attacked by a mob in Cannon Street Road, Shadwell, for smoking during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan last year. > > “Two guys stopped me in the street and asked me why I was smoking,” he said. “I just carried on, and before I knew another dozen guys came and jumped me. The next thing I knew, I was waking up in hospital.” > > Teachers in several local schools have told The Sunday Telegraph that they feel “under pressure” from local Muslim extremists, who have mounted campaigns through both parents and pupils – and, in one case, through another teacher - to enforce the compulsory wearing of the veil for Muslim girls. “It was totally orchestrated,” said one teacher. “The atmosphere became extremely unpleasant for a while, with constant verbal aggression from both the children and some parents against the head over this issue.” > > One teacher at the Bigland Green primary school, Nicholas Kafouris, last year took the council to an employment tribunal, saying he was forced out of his job for complaining that Muslim pupils were engaging in racist and anti-Semitic bullying and saying they supported terrorism. > > Mr Kafouris lost his case, though the school did admit that insufficient action had been taken against the behaviour of some pupils. The number of assaults on teachers in Tower Hamlets resulting in exclusions has more than doubled from 190 in 2007/8 to 383 in 2008/9, the latest available year, though not all are necessarily race-related. > > Tower Hamlets’ gay community has become a particular target of extremists. Homophobic crimes in the borough have risen by 80 per cent since 2007/8, and by 21 per cent over the last year, a period when there was a slight drop in London as a whole. … > > In February this year, dozens of stickers appeared across Tower Hamlets quoting the Koran, declaring the borough a “gay-free zone” and stating that “verily Allah is severe in punishment.” > > The Sunday Telegraph has learned that during a routine stop-and-search at the time police found a young Muslim man with a number of the stickers in his possession. He was released without charge on the advice of the Crown Prosecution Service. Police also had CCTV images of a second unidentified Muslim youth posting the stickers at a local railway station, but refused to release the pictures for several weeks. > > Last year, a mob of 30 young Muslims stormed a local gay pub, the George and Dragon, beating and abusing patrons. Many customers of the pub told The Sunday Telegraph that they have been attacked and harassed by local Muslim youths. In 2008 a 20-year-old student, Oli Hemsley, was left permanently paralysed after an attack by a group of young Muslims outside the pub. Only one of his assailants has been caught and jailed… > > Peter Tatchell, the gay human rights campaigner, said: “The police said no-one was allowed to talk publicly about this because they didn’t want to upset the Muslim community. We’ve made very clear the difference between the Muslim community as a whole and these particular fundamentalists, and the fact that the police wouldn’t publicly say what they knew was an absolute disgrace.” There are also issues like this that [highlight quite significant cultural differences](http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/pharmacist-is-cleared-of-misconduct-after-sex-talk.18739837?page=7), and gives rise to some absurd excuses for abusive behaviour. > [@](#): > > A pharmacist who made crude remarks to three of his female colleagues has escaped with a warning after a panel heard he came from a ‘restrictive Muslim background’ and was unaware of the offence his conduct had caused…. a professional panel ruled his behaviour was not sexually motivated. > > … > The General Pharmaceutical Council panel found Jamil acted inappropriately by making the comments and standing too close to his assistants… he asked: ‘Do you have a boyfriend? Do you want a boyfriend?’ > > The pharmacist approached her while she was at the computer at and asked her if she had a boyfriend and how she liked to have sex with him. A similar incident occurred the following week in which he put his arms around her waist. > [@](#): > > [A girl gang of Somali Muslims who repeatedly kicked](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8939276/Mercy-for-the-drunk-Muslim-girl-gang-who-attacked-woman.html)a woman in the head during a drunken attack were spared jail after a judge heard that their religion meant they were not used to drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/45 "2014-02-27T08:17:17Z")
**Chen019** , I think you’re making the usual mistakes when it comes to dealing for Muslim migration: 1- Localised issues are highlighted (such as the burning of a mosque in Sweden or the crazy plans of some Muslims in London) to prove a point. Yet what is not mentioned is that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Sweden and London have nothing to do with those incidents, and quite surely no sympathy for them either. 2- You mention the different attitudes of Muslims and ‘native Europeans’. As if that were something new. I can tell you for example that Sweden has taken in immigrants in waves, depending on where asylum seekers were coming from. First were the victims of Latin American dictatorships, later came the Iranians, then the Kurds, then victims of the Balkan wars, and more recently Iraqis, Somalis, Afghans and, lately, Syrians. I can assure you that not one of those groups of immigrants had the same attitudes as native Swedes. Sure, the Chileans and Argentineans of the 1970s were Christians, but their attitudes clashed strongly with the Swedish tradition of individualism, gender equality and civic behaviour. Quite simply, it’s taken time (and one or two generations) for them to blend in. Who is to say that won’t happen to these new immigrants, whose views are also so different? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/46 "2014-02-27T10:43:40Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > **Chen019** , I think you’re making the usual mistakes when it comes to dealing for Muslim migration: > > 1- Localised issues are highlighted (such as the burning of a mosque in Sweden or the crazy plans of some Muslims in London) to prove a point. Yet what is not mentioned is that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Sweden and London have nothing to do with those incidents, and quite surely no sympathy for them either. > > 2- You mention the different attitudes of Muslims and ‘native Europeans’. As if that were something new. > > I can tell you for example that Sweden has taken in immigrants in waves, depending on where asylum seekers were coming from. First were the victims of Latin American dictatorships, later came the Iranians, then the Kurds, then victims of the Balkan wars, and more recently Iraqis, Somalis, Afghans and, lately, Syrians. I can assure you that not one of those groups of immigrants had the same attitudes as native Swedes. > > Sure, the Chileans and Argentineans of the 1970s were Christians, but their attitudes clashed strongly with the Swedish tradition of individualism, gender equality and civic behaviour. Quite simply, it’s taken time (and one or two generations) for them to blend in. Who is to say that won’t happen to these new immigrants, whose views are also so different? 1. I was responding to the claim suggesting he/she could not see a cultural clash. The Pew Attitude Survey I cited above which shows quite [significant cultural/attitudinal differences](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/#.Uw8Pcf1IWDU). 2. It’s more than a few isolated incidents. The [former EU Commissioner Frits Bolkenstein](http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/I-see-no-future-for-Jews-in-the-Netherlands) said jews have no future in the Netherlands because of Muslim attacks. The articles above indicate a similar exodus France & parts of Sweden. The [EU even tried to cover this up previously](http://archive.adl.org/presrele/asint_13/4473_13.html#.Uw8TcP1IWDU): > [@](#): > > We are disappointed that in its public statements, the EUMC downplays its own conclusions that the new anti-Semitic outbreak is connected to the Arab-Israeli conflict and that incidents are being primarily perpetrated by Muslim immigrant youth, and concerned by the report’s narrow approach to the connection of anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism. > > Even after a previous EUMC report produced in 2003 was not released by the Centre, reportedly because of the report’s conclusion that Muslim immigrants were responsible for the sharp increase in anti-Semitic violence in the Spring of 2002, the EU still appears unwilling to acknowledge its own findings that Muslim immigrant youth are increasingly responsible for anti-Semitic violence motivated by the conflict in the Middle East. 1. What’s particularly concerning in the examples above is the craven response of authorities to cover up, downplay or excuse sexual harassment or violence by Muslim perpetrators. That in itself suggests a breakdown in the normal enforcement of societal norms. 2. In terms of crime - you can see there are [major issues:](http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/can-antiracism-reform-itself.html) > [@](#): > > The problem here is the lack of a common rulebook. Although many ‘New Europeans’ see violence as a legitimate way to settle a personal dispute, their countries of origin are often surprisingly peaceful. The reason is that any act of violence will trigger retaliation by the victim’s brothers and male relatives, and this retaliation will be visited not only on the perpetrator but also on his own family and relatives. The result is a “balance of terror” that ensures some degree of social peace. > > The situation changes, however, when the same people move to a society that imposes nothing worse than a prison sentence on violent criminals and no punishment at all on their families. The result? In France, between 60 and 70% of prison inmates are Muslims, mostly from North or West Africa, although they make up only 12% of the total population (Moore, 2008). In Spain, they account for 70% of prison inmates but only 2.3% of the total population (WikiIslam, 2013). In Belgium, they make up 45% of prison inmates (Sudinfo.be, 2013). In all three cases, “Muslim” is a rough proxy for “people from clan-based societies that have been weakly pacified by a higher authority.” This proxy has the disadvantage of excluding some groups that shouldn’t be excluded (Christians and animists from parts of Africa). It also applies more to some Muslim groups (e.g., Somalis, Afghans) than to others (e.g., Egyptians). 1. The title of this on the benefits of Muslims keeping out of Europe. From the above, you would have avoided creating unnecessary social conflict arising from cultural differences and loss of social capital/trust? 2. You mention Sweden taking a generation or two for people to blend in. Sweden itself seems a good example of a bad policy though? Tino Sanandaji (a Swedish/US economist) [writes quite a lot about the problems the Swedes have](http://super-economy.blogspot.co.nz/2010/04/immigrant-crime-in-sweden.html)! > [@](#): > > In the latest available year foreign nationals constituted 6% of the Swedish population and 29% of the prison population. Foreigners are thus 6.2 times as likely to be incarcerated than Swedes, or 520% higher incarceration rate. > > The over-representation is even higher for middle eastern citizens, who are 6.6 as likely as Swedish citizens to be in prison. > > Lastly African citizens are 10.9 times as likely as Swedish citizens to be in prison. [Sanandaji notes](http://super-economy.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/malmo-case-study-in-multiculturalism.html) 41 percent of Malmös population consists of first or second generation immigrants, and the stats on child poverty, welfare dependency, crime and education suggest Sweden has a pretty weird immigration policy. It looks more like a ghetto is forming rather than blending in, in that case. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/47 "2014-02-27T11:07:30Z")
For what it’s worth, the second largest migrant group in Malmö are Danes. They are followed by former Yugoslavs and Poles, as well as quite a few Hungarians and Romanians. Yet the blame falls on the Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/48 "2014-02-27T13:36:52Z")
Chen019, Those stories are from the London East End, which has long been the place where new immigrant communities and refugees find a first home. It has also always been the home of radical politics in the UK both from the extreme left and right. The East End was were Stalin, Lenin and their chums sought refuge amongst the Russian refugee crisis a century ago. It was the place where the Jewish community expelled fought the Fascists in the 1930s. It is the place where British Socialism and trade unions developed amidst a backdrop of gangsterism and poverty. At the moment, the big community is the Bangladeshis who are well established and there is a big mosque. The ones causing problems at the moment are the refugees from middle Eastern war zones particularly the Horn of African. These guys have been behind power struggles within mosques. They are the ones behind the headlines and giving the settled Muslim community a bad name. The UK authorities have been vexed for sometime regarding how to deal with them, with good reason. Radical jihadists were behind to bombings on the London underground. They don’t really care about the country they live in. However, this has to be put in perspective. Just as we should not judge Christianity in the USA by the outpourings of its radical preachers, Islam also has its share of loony toons bent on destroying anything that offends their sensibilities. The religious context is simply the cultural vernacular, the background. Just as many European parties, especially the Socialist ones have Christian in the title that reflects the political priorities informed by collective community and pastoral lessons from the religion. So too, the Islamic world takes a similar reference point and these principals are usually benign. Political radicals, however simply try to hijack religious institutions and the spiritual authority they provide in order to obtain a base and way of attracting recruits to their cause. They do this by intimidation and gangsterism while purporting to be deeply religious men. The UK census reports there are about 2.7 Million who say they follow the Muslim religion. For the most part they are perfectly respectable people who have strong sense of work, family and community. They are settled now for three generations and the different factions of their religion live peaceably in the UK. That the UK has been involved in Middle Eastern wars and this has encouraged these radicals to come over recruiting disaffected youth and criminals to their cause is matter of some concern. Both the community leaders and the authorities are dealing with it. Immigration and how people move around their world is a fascinating subject, there are many aspects to this both positive and negative. However, it does not do it justice to conflate the activities of extremists who want to change the world, with the majority of immigrant communities who are ordinary people who just want to get on with their life in a new country. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/49 "2014-02-27T14:02:55Z")
You’re wasting your breath, **filmstar**. \*\*Chen \*\*is a proud “racial realist” of ours, which is a polite way of saying a raging xenophobe. It’s got very little to do with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/50 "2014-02-27T14:24:43Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > becoming part of the EU in the case of Turkey? Turkey’s biggest issue to join is completely unrelated to religion: it currently occupies territory of a EU member. For some reason the Chipriots aren’t dandy with that. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/51 "2014-02-27T14:25:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > by your standards, there’s a whole pile of ethnic and religious groups who’d be banned from Europe based on such logic. He probably knows that too. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/52 "2014-02-27T14:49:00Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [For starters](http://www.aina.org/news/20080718105208.htm), Denmark used to give welfare to immigrants as soon as they arrived. An immigrant could get permanent citizenship after living there for just three years. It was easy for immigrants to bring their family members into the country. All of these laws have changed in the past few years. That is pretty much the worst citation anyone has ever offered for anything. > [@Chen019](#): > > Interesting post, although in terms of attitudes there are some pretty glaring issues according to [Pew Attitude surveys](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/)and examples above, not to mention issues in the UK like [these in London](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8570506/Police-covered-up-violent-campaign-to-turn-London-area-Islamic.html): Tower Hamlets? You might as well judge race relations in the US by posting news articles about South Central LA. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/53 "2014-02-27T15:16:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That is pretty much the worst citation anyone has ever offered for anything. [Rolls eyes] The question was whether immigration laws and restrictions in Denmark have gotten more strict in the past decade or so. If you think they haven’t, you’re free to provide a better citation to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/54 "2014-02-27T15:31:28Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [Rolls eyes] > > The question was whether immigration laws and restrictions in Denmark have gotten more strict in the past decade or so. If you think they haven’t, you’re free to provide a better citation to that effect. As pointed out, one of the “facts” reported in your linked article is flat out wrong ([“You will not be allowed to build a mosque in Copenhagen”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_of_Copenhagen)) and none of the “more strict” rules listed are actually compared to the old rules that were supposed to be lax. So it’s not a good cite whether I have a better one or not. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/55 "2014-02-27T15:59:34Z")
The fact remains that laws concerning immigration to Denmark have gotten a lot stricter since the ‘cartoon crisis’ and this [has lead to a drop in immigration](http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/putting-a-price-on-foreigners-strict-immigration-laws-save-denmark-billions-a-759716.html). "The small Scandinavian country already has the strictest immigration and asylum laws in Europe. … The number of asylum seekers and relatives of immigrants seeking entry into Denmark dropped by more than two-thirds within nine years as a result of the tough laws. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/56 "2014-02-27T16:55:09Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [Rolls eyes] > > The question was whether immigration laws and restrictions in Denmark have gotten more strict in the past decade or so. If you think they haven’t, you’re free to provide a better citation to that effect. Immigration laws in Denmark were always very strict by Scandinavian standards. However, there is strong evidence that these laws have become [more](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12366676) and [more](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/8492822/Denmarks-immigration-laws-save-country-6-billion.html) restrictive in recent years. The target of recent reforms is family re-unification, which apparently has led many Danes to move to Sweden in order to [bring their significant others in](http://www.thelocal.se/20110914/36128) from outside the EU ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/57 "2014-02-27T17:08:00Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [Rolls eyes] > > The question was whether immigration laws and restrictions in Denmark have gotten more strict in the past decade or so. If you think they haven’t, you’re free to provide a better citation to that effect. For the hell of it, I looked up the source of your cite. You’ll find that article by Susan MacAllen reposted as such places as [Islam-Watch.org](http://Islam-Watch.org) (“telling the truth about Islam”), and as for the organization she wrote it for and writes for, well here it is: [Family Security Matters](https://www.familysecuritymatters.org/). Today’s hot topics: Ukraine, Benghazi, Constitution, Obamacare, Economy, Common Core, Islam, Terrorism, Abortion. Oh, and just because that blowjob in the Whitehouse can’t ever go away, Yes, We Should Discuss the Clinton’s Past. There’s also a short thread on that very article of hers at snopes [here](http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=26990) where I discovered she’s also the author of [A Terrorist by Any Other Name . . . Still Kills](http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/articles/islamic-jihad-articles/a-terrorist-by-any-other-name-still-kills/). The concluding two sentences in that [del]article[/del] piece of trash of hers sum it up quite nicely: > [@](#): > > We need to dare to see evil and dare to speak its name. Its name, Mr. Brown, is ISLAM. She has also authored “[Canada: Our Troublesome Northern Friend](http://www.1913intel.com/2007/04/30/canada-our-troublesome-northern-%e2%80%98friend%e2%80%99/)”, which while promising > [@](#): > > Even in the post 9-11 world, relations between the U.S. and Canada are continuously strained over the War on Terror. FSM Editor Susan MacAllen tells why we need to be concerned about Canada’s lax security and overwhelmingly anti-American public mood. I haven’t been able to find a link that doesn’t dead end in Page Not Found at the FSM website. Damn, guess we’ll be caught unprepared when the great Islamo-Canuck invasion she tried to warn us of finally comes to pass. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/58 "2014-02-27T17:18:20Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Damn, guess we’ll be caught unprepared when the great Islamo-Canuck invasion she tried to warn us of finally comes to pass. All aboot Ackbar, eh. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/59 "2014-02-28T01:02:10Z")
Well…looking on the bright side. I suppose all the hours of dedicated Internet trollery keeps these individuals from raving at passers by in the street and out of institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/60 "2014-02-28T01:10:24Z")
There have been (some) Muslims in (some part of) Europe for longer than there have been any Europeans in any part of the Americas. I think they can reasonably be said to have had some cultural clashes with the locals, too So, logically, … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=4)