# The many benefits of keeping Muslims out of Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068 "2014-02-24T05:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/61 "2014-02-28T02:47:30Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. I was responding to the claim suggesting he/she could not see a cultural clash. The Pew Attitude Survey I cited above which shows quite [significant cultural/attitudinal differences](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/#.Uw8Pcf1IWDU). Of course, when one actually looks at the Pew surveys, one discovers that the attitudes explored are of Asian or African Muslims in their own countries, (with the various limitations on news and other media that most of them share). If one looks at the attitudes of European Muslims who have already (im)migrated and are living in the more open societies of Europe, one finds a different picture: I don’t have explicit numbers for Sweden, but looking at other high immigration European nations, we find a number of interesting attitude polls. One study found that 73% of Muslim immigrants with voting rights had participated in national elections, only a bit lower than the 81% of the general population. Muslim women voted at the same rate as Muslim men. 50% of Muslims were involved in “mixed organizations rather than organizations based on their own ethnicity or religion.” _Muslims in Europe: A Report on 11 EU Cities_ (New York: Open Society Institute, 2009) 62% of French Muslims claim that democracy is doing well in France, as opposed to only 58% of the general population. In the same poll, Muslims gave a 95% overall favorable rating to France and French institutions. Sylvain Brouard and Vincent Tiberj, _Francais comme les autres? Enquete sur les citoyen d’origine maghrebine, africaine et turque_ (Presses de Sciences Po, 2005) Following the headscarf bans in schools, a U.S. State Department survey found that “large majorities of Muslims in France voice confidence in the country’s government, feel at least partly French, and support integrating into French society.” _French Muslims Favor Integration into French Society_ (Washington, DC: Department of State, Office of Research, Opinion Analysis M-58-05, 2005). A poll from 2005 found that around 80% of Muslims were “comfortable with people of different religions dating or marrying” while 59% would not object to their daughter marrying a non-Muslim. (This is born out in the fact that 25% of French Muslim women have married non-Muslim men.) Jonathan Laurence and Justin Vaisse, _Integrating Islam: Political and Religious Changes in Contemporary Fance_ (Brookings Institution Pres, 2006), 43. 60% of French Muslims claim to have French friends and 45% to have Jewish friends. A separate survey found that French Muslims felt comfortable with other French people at a rate of 85%, but felt comfortable with other Muslims at a rate of only 71% or with others of their immigrant nations at a rate of 77%. When the survey was narrowed to Muslims who self-identified as being Muslim before being French, the 85% figure jumped to 90%. (Among the French general population, this feeling of closeness for French people was only 84%.) Sylvain Brouard and Vincent Tiberj, _Francais comme les autres? Enquete sur les citoyen d’origine maghrebine, africaine et turque_ (Presses de Sciences Po, 2005) In 2009, 77% of British Muslims identified “extremely strongly” or “very strongly” with Britain as their homeland, (vs only 50% of Britons in the general population). While lower, the numbers for French and German Muslims were 52% and 40%. _The Gallup Coexist Index 2009: A Global Study of Interfaith Relations_, 21 - 24. Jacob Vigdor created an “assimilation index” that was based, not on attitudes, but on participation. He measured male and female employment, home ownership, and naturalization. Canada and the U.S. demonstrated very high rates of “assimilation” on his scale with rates of 77% and 60%. Most European countries rated much lower–Spain was at 38%, for example. However, when he looked behind his numbers, he did not find that the Muslim immigrants were refusing to buy homes or become naturalized, but that their general poverty and national restrictions on ownership precluded home ownership and high barrier laws prevented naturalization. Jacob L. Vigdor, _Comparing Immigrant Assimilation in North America and Europe_ (New York: Center for State and Local Leadership, May 2011) Much has been made of the minority of Muslims who “support violence.” In fact, in the U.S. 7% of Muslims reported that violence against civilian targets is “sometimes justified” while another 1% say it is “often justified.” _[Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism](http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/Muslim-Americans--No-Signs-of-Growth-in-Alienation-or-Support-for-Extremism.aspx)_ Of course, when similar questions were asked of the general American population, 24% said that bomb attacks aimed at civilians are “often or sometimes justified” while another 6% said they were “completely justified.” John L. Esposito and Dalia Mogahed, _Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think_ New York: Gallup Press, 2008), 95. In a similar poll in Europe, the question [are] “attacks on civilians morally justified?” received affirmative responses of 1%, 1%, and 3% among the general populations of France, Germany, and Britain, but 2%, 0.5%, and 2% among the Muslim populations of the same countries. _The Gallup Coexist Index 2009: A Global Study of Interfaith Relations_, 40 - 41. The “elephant in the room” is not fanatical Fundamentalist Islam, it is the willingness of people to make bad assumptions about other people without considering evidence–or even in the face of evidence as we saw during the French youth riots. In fact, I would venture that there is no “elephant in the room” in the sense of a large, smelly, messy, potentially dangerous beast about which no one dare speak. Rather, there appears to be a mouse in the room about which all sorts of people are willing to talk at length while they and others leap on chairs to avoid it. Now, I have not been able to find serious numbers regarding Swedish Muslim immigrants, in particular. However, unless someone has actual data regarding the Swedish immigrants that is in direct conflict with the consistent data already provided regarding France, Britain, Germany, and the U.S., I see no reason to believe that speculation about the Swedish immigrants is anything more than the same fear-based nonsense that has been spread about regarding the maligned immigrants for whom I have shown data (that pretty much exactly parallels the same sort of phobias that were spread regarding the Irish, Italians, Chinese, and other immigrants to the U.S.) There will certainly be conflicts–as there have always been conflicts between settled people and immigrants. (Malmö may have a specific problem if the city has a population with 41% recent Muslim immigrants, but Malmö is unique in having nearly half its population so identified. That is hardly a European-wide phenomenon.) But the conflicts we have seen across Europe in the last 20 years have been the typical problems associated with large migrations that are not specific to Islam and probably have no connection with the Muslim religion or culture. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/62 "2014-02-28T08:12:19Z")
Fantastic post, **tomndebb** The problem with finding data about Sweden is that it doesn’t keep statistics on the religious beliefs, or even ethnic background, of its citizens. It might even be illegal to collect that kind of data. For what it’s worth, I recall a study that showed that foreign-born Swedes tend to vote for the Social Democrats. That is quite probably the most ‘typically Swedish’ thing an immigrant can do, given the history of the party. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/63 "2014-03-01T07:31:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Tower Hamlets? You might as well judge race relations in the US by posting news articles about South Central LA. That’s one example. As I have indicated in both posts above, if you want to see the difference in cultural views see [Pew Research on the topic](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/). @ Batistuta, That is interesting. I’ll look more into that. I didn’t mean to suggest Muslims are solely to blame for Malmo. My point was that Sweden is hardly a shining example of integration or assimilation. I note no-one seems to have commented on the observation by the former EU [Commissioner Fritz Bolkenstein](http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/I-see-no-future-for-Jews-in-the-Netherlands) that Jews apparently have no future in the Netherlands because of Muslim aggression? Or the examples of [France](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/127076/the-very-real-jewish-exodus-from-france) or [Sweden](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html)? Does reducing anti-semitic violence that count as a benefit of keeping Muslims out of Europe?? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/64 "2014-03-01T08:30:20Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > @ Batistuta, > > That is interesting. I’ll look more into that. I didn’t mean to suggest Muslims are solely to blame for Malmo. My point was that Sweden is hardly a shining example of integration or assimilation. I think we can definitely agree on that. I think everyone in Sweden (at least everyone I know) is willing to admit that integration is a problem. But the topic of this thread has to do with **Muslims** , and I am not willing to agree that Muslims have greater integration troubles than non-Muslim immigrants. > [@Chen019](#): > > I note no-one seems to have commented on the observation by the former EU [Commissioner Fritz Bolkenstein](http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/I-see-no-future-for-Jews-in-the-Netherlands) that Jews apparently have no future in the Netherlands because of Muslim aggression? Or the examples of [France](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/127076/the-very-real-jewish-exodus-from-france) or [Sweden](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html)? Does reducing anti-semitic violence that count as a benefit of keeping Muslims out of Europe?? Let’s see. Bolkestein is a mathematician who was commisioner for Internal Market or Services. I don’t see why his personal opinion is more informed or valid than anyone else’s. Furthermore, he is a member of a Dutch party (VVD) which too often toys with border-line racism towards Moroccan immigrants. So I would argue that he has a veiled interest in portraying the issue of anti-Semitic violence as a bigger thing than it is. Now, about anti-Semitic violence itself: it is unacceptable. Even if it has been somewhat inflated by the media, it is just not acceptable in 21st century Europe. And I’m willing to agree that Muslims play a larger role in this than other immigrants, but I don’t think that keeping them out is the answer. Particularly in a country like Sweden where a large proportion of immigrants are refugees - ie people whose lives would be in danger if they stayed in their home countries. The long-term solution to this problem is education, the short-term one is using state authorities to draw a clear line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. Western Europe has some of the most efficient, well-functioning state structures in human history. They should be able to deal with this problem, they just need to want to ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/65 "2014-03-01T09:11:09Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > I think we can definitely agree on that. I think everyone in Sweden (at least everyone I know) is willing to admit that integration is a problem. But the topic of this thread has to do with **Muslims** , and I am not willing to agree that Muslims have greater integration troubles than non-Muslim immigrants. > Let’s see. Bolkestein is a mathematician who was commisioner for Internal Market or Services. I don’t see why his personal opinion is more informed or valid than anyone else’s. Furthermore, he is a member of a Dutch party (VVD) which too often toys with border-line racism towards Moroccan immigrants. So I would argue that he has a veiled interest in portraying the issue of anti-Semitic violence as a bigger thing than it is. > > Now, about anti-Semitic violence itself: it is unacceptable. Even if it has been somewhat inflated by the media, it is just not acceptable in 21st century Europe. And I’m willing to agree that Muslims play a larger role in this than other immigrants, but I don’t think that keeping them out is the answer. Particularly in a country like Sweden where a large proportion of immigrants are refugees - ie people whose lives would be in danger if they stayed in their home countries. The long-term solution to this problem is education, the short-term one is using state authorities to draw a clear line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. Western Europe has some of the most efficient, well-functioning state structures in human history. They should be able to deal with this problem, they just need to want to I wasn’t saying that was the answer - I was saying that would be _a_ benefit of keeping Muslims out of Europe. Those who support gay rights would probably also find keeping Muslims out of Europe to be beneficial. In France [it seems that](http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/can-antiracism-reform-itself.html) between 60 and 70% of prison inmates are Muslims, mostly from North or West Africa, although they make up only 12% of the total population. In Spain, they account for 70% of prison inmates but only 2.3% of the total population. In Belgium, they make up 45% of prison inmates. That may reflect the particular countries those people came from rather than the religion per se, or all Muslim groups which as the Pew Study I linked to indicates, vary in attitudes. In terms of your comments about solutions, there are already clear lines about what is acceptable/not-acceptable. As anthropologist Peter Frost [suggests](http://evoandproud.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/can-antiracism-reform-itself.html), the kind of anti-racist education that works on Europeans might not necessarily be as effective with Muslim groups. Particularly, from from clan-based societies that haven’t been pacified by a higher authority to the extent you see in European or some Asian societies. I would suggest that the Swedes might want to be a bit more cautious about transforming their widely admired country, but I’m probably a pessimist. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/66 "2014-03-01T12:26:01Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > It seems there is quite a cultural clash going on with Muslims & Europe. Is there a legitimate reason Europeans are concerned about Muslims immigrating in, or becoming part of the EU in the case of Turkey? Or this this mostly just driven by a gut-level fear of outsiders? Well, it’s said that there is a “5% threshold” for moslems in a given population, after which point they have a tendency to start pushing for the commingling of Sharia law with the local jurisprudence and, subsequently, autonomous Caliphates. …And we all know where that road leads, Mr. Anderson. Also, by ‘pushing’, I mean **bombing** (or beheading). See: Mindanao, Phillippines; Southern region of Thailand; vast swathes of northern Africa… I think it boils down to the fact that Islam, unlike most other religious doctrines, prescribes an all-encompassing dogma that stretches its tentacles into all aspects of human life – culture, law, relationship dynamics, eating habits, dress code _et al_. It’s also a stridently intolerant faith that brooks very deviation from what it deems acceptable. It’s astronomically unlikely that “the noble Qur’an” will be amended to allow homosexual relationships any time soon, for example. This kind of ‘viral’ ideology is wholly incompatible with a liberal society, much less one predicated its own religion’s tenets. As such, it’s quite evident why the putative influx of moslem people into Europe is causing unease and why the arguments for abating this flow seem tenable. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/67 "2014-03-01T13:11:50Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > Well, it’s said that there is a “5% threshold” for moslems in a given population, after which point they have a tendency to start pushing for the commingling of Sharia law with the local jurisprudence and, subsequently, autonomous Caliphates. …And we all know where that road leads, Mr. Anderson. Oh shit, we’re at ~10% here in France (estimated, since our official census deliberately does not ask for religion). And have been for about 50 years. Should I be expecting a Caliphate of Garches-les-Gonesses tomorrow, or the day after that ? Oh, could you name one modern caliph BTW ? Just one will do. Thx in adv. > [@](#): > > I think it boils down to the fact that Islam, unlike most other religious doctrines, prescribes an all-encompassing dogma that stretches its tentacles into all aspects of human life – culture, law, relationship dynamics, eating habits, dress code _et al_. Yeah, it’s very much unlike Judaism that way. Or Shintoism, Hinduism, Sikhism… BTW, did you know that the Constitution of the US and its legal code should follow the 10 commandments, which themselves should be carved on the front of courthouses ; America is a godly nation under god with god’s own money and everything bad that happens is because some are not godly enough, praise Jesus ; that abortion is a sin and abstinence is the one and only way to effect birth control especially among teenagers ; and that the President shouldn’t be an atheist according to a rough 70% of the population ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/68 "2014-03-01T13:59:50Z")
Now that I think about it, the US has dry states too, right ? There’s your dietary restrictions (Catholics also don’t eat meat on Friday). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/69 "2014-03-01T15:21:28Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > Well, it’s said that there is a “5% threshold” for moslems in a given population, after which point they have a tendency to start pushing for the commingling of Sharia law with the local jurisprudence and, subsequently, autonomous Caliphates. …And we all know where that road leads, Mr. Anderson. > > Also, by ‘pushing’, I mean **bombing** (or beheading). See: Mindanao, Phillippines; Southern region of Thailand; vast swathes of northern Africa… > > I think it boils down to the fact that Islam, unlike most other religious doctrines, prescribes an all-encompassing dogma that stretches its tentacles into all aspects of human life – culture, law, relationship dynamics, eating habits, dress code _et al_. It’s also a stridently intolerant faith that brooks very deviation from what it deems acceptable. It’s astronomically unlikely that “the noble Qur’an” will be amended to allow homosexual relationships any time soon, for example. > > This kind of ‘viral’ ideology is wholly incompatible with a liberal society, much less one predicated its own religion’s tenets. As such, it’s quite evident why the putative influx of moslem people into Europe is causing unease and why the arguments for abating this flow seem tenable. Could you let the Christians and Muslims in Central African Republic know this? Thousands of moderate Muslims are fleeing the threat of ethnic cleansing at the hands of Christian militias, and I’m afraid they’ve got their roles mixed up! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/70 "2014-03-01T15:23:44Z")
Looking forward to this thread being moved to The BBQ Pit so responses to the OP and the OP’s “fellow travelers” can be worded appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/71 "2014-03-01T15:46:45Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Could you let the Christians and Muslims in Central African Republic know this? Thousands of moderate Muslims are fleeing the threat of ethnic cleansing at the hands of Christian militias, and I’m afraid they’ve got their roles mixed up! Oh, that’s nothing. They’re just pre-emptively retaliating before the Muslims reach that critical mass of 5% at which point they’re able to kill everyone and take over. Perfectly sensible, and justified of course. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/72 "2014-03-01T17:26:53Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Immigration in Europe follows a different pattern from the US. Not so different. > [@](#): > > The US is a country founded on immigration. Most often a one way ticket from the old country to a new life, often obtaining a new identity in the process. The American dream was a compelling proposition for many people fleeing poverty and persecution. > > In Europe there were no such grand ideals involved, just political and economic expediency. Immigration was a device to solve a labour shortage. Once the devastated economies of Europe began to grow, there was a massive labour shortage across much of western Europe. Both the US and Europe had a lot work to and not enough people to do it. We had accidentally depopulated our country with disease long before most Europeans got here. Europe had been depopulated on purpose. > [@](#): > > The UK advertisements were placed in newspapers across the English speaking Caribbean and Africa for workers for 5 year contracts to work for the railways, the buses, the London underground. Then to India and Pakistan to recruit textile workers from the cotton producing areas. American railroads received a windfall of land to encourage them to build railroads across the West. They needed to populate their parts and the government needed to populate its parts, so ads were placed across Europe to attract _permanent_ settlers. Well into my lifetime there were towns where a lot of folks only spoke languages that were not English. F’rinstance, actor Charles Bronson was born in Pennsylvania to an American-born mother, but didn’t learn English until his teens. America’s cotton workers obviously did not come over here voluntarily, but ads were placed in China to attract people to build the railroads; neither group was permitted to assimilate thanks to the racism of _European_-Americans. The Chinese situation in the US seems more comparable to the Turkish situation in Germany, where they were not even permitted to become citizens of the host country. Years back, somebody on this very board suggested that Muslim women wear burquas because they are so ugly. Patent nonsense! And hijabs are kinda hot because I know what flowing, raven locks are under them. An Orthodox Jewish friend told me that she covered her hair because the slightest glimpse of it would make me leave my wife. Not true with her, but I can see it in a more general way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/73 "2014-03-01T21:41:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m just wondering: has there ever been any terrorist act by the people commonly called “Gypsies”? Al-Qaeda tried using them as suicide bombers, but they always snuck away and dismantled the bombs and sold the parts . . . ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/74 "2014-03-01T22:29:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Looking forward to this thread being moved to The BBQ Pit so responses to the OP and the OP’s “fellow travelers” can be worded > appropriately. Welcome to [this sister thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=717135) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/75 "2014-03-01T23:05:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Al-Qaeda tried using them as suicide bombers, but they always snuck away and dismantled the bombs and sold the parts . . . This is not helpful. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/76 "2014-03-02T00:02:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh, could you name one modern caliph BTW ? Just one will do. Thx in adv. _Want_ and _get_ are two different verbs. > [@](#): > > Yeah, it’s very much unlike Judaism that way. Or Shintoism, Hinduism, Sikhism… Well, Judaism does also belong to the Abrahamic branch of religio-ideologies. As for Shinto, Hinduism etc; all dogma has fundamentalist extremities. It’s just that this thread specifically tackles **Islam** and its seeming ‘encroachment’ into the European comfort zone. > [@](#): > > BTW, did you know that the Constitution of the US and its legal code should follow the 10 commandments, which themselves should be carved on the front of courthouses Yeah. I do. …And it’s hilarious in its irony! ## '_We live in a country in which a person cannot get elected president if he openly doubts the existence of heaven and hell. This is truly remarkable, given that there is no other body of “knowledge” that we require our political leaders to master. Even a hairstylist must pass a licensing exam before plying his trade in the United States, and yet those given the power to make war and national policy?those whose decisions will inevitably affect human life for generations?are not expected to know anything in particular before setting to work. They do not have to be political scientists, economists, or even lawyers; they need not have studied international relations, military history, resource management, civil engineering, or any other field of knowledge that might be brought to bear in the governance of a modern superpower; they need only be expert fund-raisers, comport themselves well on television, and be indulgent of certain myths. In our next presidential election, an actor who reads his Bible would almost certainly defeat a rocket scientist who does not. Could there be any clearer indication that we are allowing unreason and otherworldliness to govern our affairs ?_ ’ **-Sam Harris, _The End of Faith_** > [@even\_sven](#): > > Could you let the Christians and Muslims in Central African Republic know this? Thousands of moderate Muslims are fleeing the threat of ethnic cleansing at the hands of Christian militias ## If you’re suggesting that what I was suggesting was that Islam is the _only_ brand of superstition that propagates extremism, then you’re drunk and should catch a cab home. Again; the thread concerns the influx of moslems into Europe and the resultant inquietude, _not_ which ‘anti fag’ placards the Westoro Baptist Church are toting this week. I’ve got no particular issue with moslems, per se. It’s the brain rot of the fretful human mind which we affectionately dub ‘religion’ that I have a beef with. For context: if I were given the opportunity (perhaps if Ukraine boils over into the long-overdue WWIII the Internets have been baying for), I’d be the first in line to head the new ‘Einsatzgruppen’ established to eradicate ALL the cerebrally retarding religious doctrines that have hamstrung our species’ evolution for so many centuries. Case in point: If a parent sexually molests their child, we imprison them. If they psychologically abuse their formative mind through religious indoctrination, causing likely irreparable damage, its tolerated, if not celebrated. Yet, I’ve never heard of a kiddy fiddled child growing up to orchestrate the felling of major edifice landmarks or to throw sulphuric acid in a woman’s face for daring to show her skin in public. Nice to meet y’all 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/77 "2014-03-02T00:22:18Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > _Want_ and _get_ are two different verbs. Ah. So they definitely want them. But even in Muslim-dominated countries, they don’t get them. Sounds legit. > [@](#): > > Well, Judaism does also belong to the Abrahamic branch of religio-ideologies. As for Shinto, Hinduism etc; all dogma has fundamentalist extremities. It’s just that this thread specifically tackles **Islam** and its seeming ‘encroachment’ into the European comfort zone. Yes. And you said Islam was very different from other religions in that regards, when it’s patently absurd and the various aspects you gave to support the notion that Islam is a super special, most eeeevul religion are also present in every \*other \*religion. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/78 "2014-03-02T01:59:41Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > Well, it’s said that there is a “5% threshold” for moslems in a given population, after which point they have a tendency to start pushing for the commingling of Sharia law with the local jurisprudence and, subsequently, autonomous Caliphates. …And we all know where that road leads, Mr. Anderson. Besides the fact already noted that there are more than 5% muslims in France, there’s a whopping 12% of them regularly practising their religion. So, even though they’re clearly more religious than christians (8%) I don’t see this obsession with religion that would lead to Sharia law. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/79 "2014-03-02T02:04:45Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > That may reflect the particular countries those people came from rather than the religion per se, The country whence they come being typically the country where they live. Even though most french people operate under the delusion that muslim immigrants come in drove from North Africa, this hasn’t been true in a long while. French Muslims were typically born in France, children or more and more commonly grandchildren of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/80 "2014-03-02T02:17:09Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. I was responding to the claim suggesting he/she could not see a cultural clash. The Pew Attitude Survey I cited above which shows quite [significant cultural/attitudinal differences](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/#.Uw8Pcf1IWDU). Which, as I have pointed out, are surveys taken among Muslims in countries outside Europe and are not representative of the attitudes of European Muslims as demonstrated in the several surveys that I have cited. > [@Chen019](#): > > 1. It’s more than a few isolated incidents. The [former EU Commissioner Frits Bolkenstein](http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/I-see-no-future-for-Jews-in-the-Netherlands) said jews have no future in the Netherlands because of Muslim attacks. Bolkenstein is a politician with an agenda, not a sociologist or other social scientist or a member of a law enforcement organization. His personal views are no more persuasive than those of Bruce Bawer, Gisèle Littman, Daniel Pipes, or any number of other xenophobes who have made up scenarios in which Europe is “overrun” without any basis for their claims. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=5)