# The many benefits of keeping Muslims out of Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068 "2014-02-24T05:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/81 "2014-03-02T02:44:48Z")
If only we had had the good sense to kick the Irish out of Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/82 "2014-03-02T08:33:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which, as I have pointed out, are surveys taken among Muslims in countries outside Europe and are not representative of the attitudes of European Muslims as demonstrated in the several surveys that I have cited. > > Bolkenstein is a politician with an agenda, not a sociologist or other social scientist or a member of a law enforcement organization. His personal views are no more persuasive than those of Bruce Bawer, Gisèle Littman, Daniel Pipes, or any number of other xenophobes who have made up scenarios in which Europe is “overrun” without any basis for their claims. Nice name calling. 🙂 Do you think that Benjamin Netanyahu is also a xenophobe? What about the Dalai Lama? Maybe they just are acting normally in not wanting their country to be changed significantly to that of another culture? Is that so unreasonable? In terms of evidence, I think that Bolkenstein, while a politician, is pointing out what the [ADL has also noted](http://archive.adl.org/presrele/asint_13/4473_13.html). > [@](#): > > We are disappointed that in its public statements, the EUMC downplays its own conclusions that the new anti-Semitic outbreak is connected to the Arab-Israeli conflict and that incidents are being primarily perpetrated by Muslim immigrant youth, and concerned by the report’s narrow approach to the connection of anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism. > > Even after a previous EUMC report produced in 2003 was not released by the Centre, reportedly because of the report’s conclusion that Muslim immigrants were responsible for the sharp increase in anti-Semitic violence in the Spring of 2002, the EU still appears unwilling to acknowledge its own findings that Muslim immigrant youth are increasingly responsible for anti-Semitic violence motivated by the conflict in the Middle East. As I noted above, that’s also seen in France and Sweden. The middle eastern conflict gets played [out in Europe](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/127076/the-very-real-jewish-exodus-from-france). > [@](#): > > Earlier this week, La Stampa revealed a similar expansion of French Jews in the Upper West Side of New York. > > To understand what’s happening, we have to go to the Jewish Centre on 86th Street where, in March 2012, the Jewish New Yorkers urged their French counterparts to commemorate the victims of the shooting in the “Ozar Hatorah” school in Toulouse, where the jihadist Mohammed Merah killed a rabbi and three children. > > Leading the ceremony was Zachary, 29, a transport manager from Strasbourg. “If New York is full of French Jews- he explains- it’s because in 2002, in connection with the second Palestinian Intifada, a season of physical aggression began towards us from the Arabs that still hasn’t stopped. It just brought the conflict from the Middle East onto our streets.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/83 "2014-03-02T09:15:31Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Nice name calling. 🙂 Do you think that Benjamin Netanyahu is also a xenophobe? What about the Dalai Lama? Maybe they just are acting normally in not wanting their country to be changed significantly to that of another culture? Is that so unreasonable? > > In terms of evidence, I think that Bolkenstein, while a politician, is pointing out what the [ADL has also noted](http://archive.adl.org/presrele/asint_13/4473_13.html). > > As I noted above, that’s also seen in France and Sweden. The middle eastern conflict gets played [out in Europe](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/127076/the-very-real-jewish-exodus-from-france). Of course when referring to the ADL you fail nite they’ve been staunch opponents of immigration restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/84 "2014-03-02T09:36:34Z")
Isn’t the ADL interested in inflating the threat of anti-Semitism? Let’s be honest here. (I recently watched a good documentary about the topic, titled ‘Defamation’, which is why I’m bringing this up). And isn’t Bolkenstein, who never was an EU Commissioner for anything that had to do with Muslim immigrants, but who **was** a member of a Dutch party (VVD) that often flirts with anti-Moroccan attitudes, also interested in inflating the threat of anti-Semitism? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/85 "2014-03-02T09:50:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The standard U.S. technique has been assimilation. The parents may be strict and old-country, but when the kids get into computer games, skateboarding, dating, and comic books, they become “Americanized” in a hurry. The old melting pot may take a generation or two to westernize immigrants from distant lands and distinct cultures, but the history of this kind of cultural warfare has been that western values are highly attractive. We’re best at marketing. > > Why kick 'em out when we can make positive, productive, profitable use of them? > > (Someone once said that the Vietnam war was a gigantic Viking Raid, where the U.S. came away with the real treasure of the country: the many thousands of people who came here to avoid the communist victory.) and maybe people from the East and who are Muslims don’t think too highly about what Americanized means when it’s all about skateboarding, computer games, comic books and dating, reality TV, Dancing with the Stars or the Kardashians…seriously who would apart from Americans? If all the Muslims were to be ‘thrown out’ of Europe then the entire economy would be affected because the Muslims actually own huge amounts of it and it’s land and real estate especially in the major cities and financial districts. In fact the UAE and Oman were just recently allowed by the UK to travel there Visa FREE. Qatar and Saudi also own or have shared ownership of lots of businesses and banks and real estate throughout Europe. And in the USA too. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/86 "2014-03-02T10:12:35Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > and maybe people from the East and who are Muslims don’t think too highly about what Americanized means when it’s all about skateboarding, computer games, comic books and dating, reality TV, Dancing with the Stars or the Kardashians…seriously who would apart from Americans? Er… you are from the Middle East aren’t you? You may be in denial but we Middle Easterners are just as into crap pop culture as Americans. When we have videos like this playing 24/7 it’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEZ9fhdDGs4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEZ9fhdDGs4) and this as well. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4h9zpAIgc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4h9zpAIgc) ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/87 "2014-03-02T11:12:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Much has been made of the minority of Muslims who “support violence.” In fact, in the U.S. 7% of Muslims reported that violence against civilian targets is “sometimes justified” while another 1% say it is “often justified.” > _[Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism](http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/Muslim-Americans--No-Signs-of-Growth-in-Alienation-or-Support-for-Extremism.aspx)_ From that [Pew Report](http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/) _“A significant minority (21%) of Muslim Americans say there is a great deal (6%) or a fair amount (15%) of support for extremism in the Muslim American community.”_ Although 21% may be a “significant minority,” it’s still a pretty high percentage to me… From the same report, 1 in 20 (5%) are favorable or somewhat favorable to Al Qaeda. About 1 in 12 (8%) of US Muslims consider suicide bombing against civilians often or sometimes justified to defend the religion of Islam against its enemies. (The Pew report refers to this as “negligible.”) If there are 2.5 million Muslims in the US, this is about 125,000 individuals in the US who admit to a poller that they feel at least somewhat favorably toward Al Qaeda. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/88 "2014-03-02T11:20:22Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > I think we can definitely agree on that. I think everyone in Sweden (at least everyone I know) is willing to admit that integration is a problem. But the topic of this thread has to do with **Muslims** , and I am not willing to agree that Muslims have greater integration troubles than non-Muslim immigrants. Do you have a source for this? The news reports I read seem to focus almost exclusively on the difficulties Sweden has had with Islamic immigrant populations. Is there another category of Swedish immigrants having a similar degree of problems integrating? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/89 "2014-03-02T11:22:35Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Is there another category of Swedish immigrants having a similar degree of problems integrating? Gypsies, maybe? I, too, would love to see some relevant statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/90 "2014-03-02T11:33:33Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Do you have a source for this? The news reports I read seem to focus almost exclusively on the difficulties Sweden has had with Islamic immigrant populations. > > Is there another category of Swedish immigrants having a similar degree of problems integrating? I mentioned this before in the previous page: Sweden’s census does not collect data about people’s religious beliefs or ethnic backgrounds. That makes it awfully difficult to know which groups integrate better/worse, so we have to deal with personal experiences. Sorry about that! In my experience, the Latin American refugees of the 1970s had a hard time integrating, I’ve met a few second-generation Chilean-Swedes who reject being Swedish despite having been born here. If I understand correctly, Syriacs are mostly Christians. Their integration problems are also well-documented to the point that, well… they have [their own football teams](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrianska) Another interesting case would be Kurds. The majority of them are Muslims, but I’ve also met quite a few atheists and I believe there are some Zoroastrians. It would be interesting to see if Muslim Kurds have more trouble integrating than Christian Kurds. But as said, all of this depends on personal observations ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/91 "2014-03-02T11:40:32Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > From the same report, 1 in 20 (5%) are favorable or somewhat favorable to Al Qaeda. About 1 in 12 (8%) of US Muslims consider suicide bombing against civilians often or sometimes justified to defend the religion of Islam against its enemies. (The Pew report refers to this as “negligible.”) If there are 2.5 million Muslims in the US, this is about 125,000 individuals in the US who admit to a poller that they feel at least somewhat favorably toward Al Qaeda. And how many individuals in the US feel at least somewhat favourably to bombing abortion clinics, for example ? 5% of any population is insane. A poll cited upthread has 6% of the general population stating that bombing civilians is always justified. So 19 million (and change) individuals are A-OK with state terrorism. That’s a little more scary, no ? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/92 "2014-03-02T12:35:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Now that I think about it, the US has dry states too, right ? There’s your dietary restrictions (Catholics also don’t eat meat on Friday). On the fridays of Lent, Holy Friday and Ash Wednesday. “Friday abstinence” is an additional, voluntary devotion. But yeah, add all of Christianity to the list of “all-encompassing religions”. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/93 "2014-03-02T17:18:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… you are from the Middle East aren’t you? > > You may be in denial but we Middle Easterners are just as into crap pop culture as Americans. > > When we have videos like this playing 24/7 it’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEZ9fhdDGs4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEZ9fhdDGs4) > > and this as well. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4h9zpAIgc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4h9zpAIgc) What about _good_ pop culture? I certainly know that’s available worldwide as well, but I raise the topic because I’m unhappy at the prospect of people associating America, or the West in general, with our stupidest offerings. Actually, I feel for kids right here in the US growing up in sheltered environments in which their parents are convinced the whole outside world is vile. Alternative rock, intelligent film, and graphic novels, among other things, have played such a defining, satisfying role in my life that I’m disturbed by the prospect of young people being ignorantly kept away from it all. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/94 "2014-03-02T17:30:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And how many individuals in the US feel at least somewhat favourably to bombing abortion clinics, for example ? 5% of any population is insane. A poll cited upthread has 6% of the general population stating that bombing civilians is always justified. So 19 million (and change) individuals are A-OK with state terrorism. That’s a little more scary, no ? I am not aware of any poll showing 5% support among any large religion for abortion clinic bombing. Do you have a cite for that? Which specific poll are you referencing that shows 6% of the general population thinks bombing civilians is always justified? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/95 "2014-03-02T17:47:58Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > What about _good_ pop culture? I certainly know that’s available worldwide as well, but I raise the topic because I’m unhappy at the prospect of people associating America, or the West in general, with our stupidest offerings. Actually, I feel for kids right here in the US growing up in sheltered environments in which their parents are convinced the whole outside world is vile. > > Alternative rock, intelligent film, and graphic novels, among other things, have played such a defining, satisfying role in my life that I’m disturbed by the prospect of young people being ignorantly kept away from it all. Er… trash pop culture is popular all over the world. Soap operas, to take one example are huge in most of the Middle East. That said, what is “trash” and what is “good” is in the eye of the beholder. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/96 "2014-03-02T18:54:10Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Isn’t the ADL interested in inflating the threat of anti-Semitism? Let’s be honest here. (I recently watched a good documentary about the topic, titled ‘Defamation’, which is why I’m bringing this up). > > And isn’t Bolkenstein, who never was an EU Commissioner for anything that had to do with Muslim immigrants, but who **was** a member of a Dutch party (VVD) that often flirts with anti-Moroccan attitudes, also interested in inflating the threat of anti-Semitism? Perhaps, although if people are leaving (like in the example above from France) and in Malmo because they’re getting attacked, harassed, it suggests it’s more than just fear mongering by the ADL. In any case, the title of the thread should probably be the many benefits of bringing Muslims to Europe as the onus should always be on those who want to make changes to existing societies. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/97 "2014-03-02T18:55:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Of course when referring to the ADL you fail nite they’ve been staunch opponents of immigration restrictions. What about in relation to Israel? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/98 "2014-03-02T19:33:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… trash pop culture is popular all over the world. Soap operas, to take one example are huge in most of the Middle East. Exactly, that’s my point. > [@](#): > > That said, what is “trash” and what is “good” is in the eye of the beholder. Not every beholder’s eye is equally well-qualified. In most cases, a reasonable consensus emerges. Contrast The Smiths with Wham!, for example, or Faith No More with Motely Crue, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/99 "2014-03-02T19:37:11Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > What about in relation to Israel? 🙂 Actually, I believe they’ve been very critical of Israel’s treatment of asylum seekers, while noting it’s better than Europe’s, though I could be wrong. That said, considering the views you’ve expressed about sub-Saharan immigrants, whom you regard as genetically inferior, I’d assume you feel Israel wasn’t tough enough. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/100 "2014-03-02T19:55:39Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Nice name calling. 🙂 Do you think that Benjamin Netanyahu is also a xenophobe? What about the Dalai Lama? Maybe they just are acting normally in not wanting their country to be changed significantly to that of another culture? Is that so unreasonable? Netanyahu may or may not be a xenophobe, but he is a politician who caters to the most xenophobic portion if his electorate. The Dalai Lama speaks against a military occupation of his country. You have also, not surprisingly, moved the goalposts. Bolkenstein was cited as “evidence” that Jews were being run out of the Netherlands, not simply a commentator on relations between immigrants and native Dutch. What are the actual numbers for Jewish emigration? > [@Chen019](#): > > In terms of evidence, I think that Bolkenstein, while a politician, is pointing out what the [ADL has also noted](http://archive.adl.org/presrele/asint_13/4473_13.html). . . > > As I noted above, that’s also seen in France and Sweden. The middle eastern conflict gets played [out in Europe](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/127076/the-very-real-jewish-exodus-from-france). Quoting two groups whose purpose is alarmist cries of doom without providing any numbers is nothing more than rhetoric. (And, particularly in the case of France, anti-semitism is such significant part of their history over the last 150 years that blaming it all on Muslim immigration without further evidence is just silly.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=6)