# The many benefits of keeping Muslims out of Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068 "2014-02-24T05:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/101 "2014-03-02T20:05:47Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > From that [Pew Report](http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/) > _“A significant minority (21%) of Muslim Americans say there is a great deal (6%) or a fair amount (15%) of support for extremism in the Muslim American community.”_ > > Although 21% may be a “significant minority,” it’s still a pretty high percentage to me… Note that the “21%” refers to Muslims guessing regarding support among other Muslims and does not represent actual attitudes discerned through scientific polls. I have seen “estimates” by Americans that the Tea Party movement makes up 30% - 40% of the entire U.S. population, (or Tea Party guesses that they make up 60% of the population), when in reality, they have only made it to 18% of the just the Republican party. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > From the same report, 1 in 20 (5%) are favorable or somewhat favorable to Al Qaeda. About 1 in 12 (8%) of US Muslims consider suicide bombing against civilians often or sometimes justified to defend the religion of Islam against its enemies. (The Pew report refers to this as “negligible.”) If there are 2.5 million Muslims in the US, this is about 125,000 individuals in the US who admit to a poller that they feel at least somewhat favorably toward Al Qaeda. I already noted similar numbers in my post, contrasted against > [@](#): > > Of course, when similar questions were asked of the general American population, 24% said that bomb attacks aimed at civilians are “often or sometimes justified” while another 6% said they were “completely justified.” So more non-Muslim Americans than Muslim Americans support violence against civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/102 "2014-03-02T22:42:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I already noted similar numbers in my post, contrasted against So more non-Muslim Americans than Muslim Americans support violence against civilians. Can you help me find this section in the Pew report? I am apparently getting too old to read…my apology. cp ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/103 "2014-03-03T01:40:13Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Can you help me find this section in the Pew report? > I am apparently getting too old to read…my apology. > > cp From my earlier post: > [@tomndebb](#): > > Much has been made of the minority of Muslims who “support violence.” In fact, in the U.S. 7% of Muslims reported that violence against civilian targets is “sometimes justified” while another 1% say it is “often justified.” > _[Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism](http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/Muslim-Americans--No-Signs-of-Growth-in-Alienation-or-Support-for-Extremism.aspx)_. The link takes one to an abstract page from which one can click on the [Full Report](http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/) that include the following observations: > [@](#): > > On the contrary, as found in the Pew Research Center’s 2007 survey, Muslims in the United States continue to reject extremism by much larger margins than most Muslim publics surveyed this year by the Pew Global Attitudes Project. And majorities of Muslim Americans express concern about the possible rise of Islamic extremism, both here and abroad. > > A significant minority (21%) of Muslim Americans say there is a great deal (6%) or a fair amount (15%) of support for extremism in the Muslim American community. That is far below the proportion of the general public that sees at least a fair amount of support for extremism among U.S. Muslims (40%). And while about a quarter of the public (24%) thinks that Muslim support for extremism is increasing, just 4% of Muslims agree. > [@](#): > > As in 2007, very few Muslim Americans – just 1% – say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are often justified to defend Islam from its enemies; an additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified in these circumstances. Fully 81% say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians are never justified. And the accompanying chart to this second paragraph shows that absolute opposition to suicide bombings among U.S. Muslims was up to 81% in 2011 from 78% in 2007, so the numbers were trending away from support for terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/104 "2014-03-03T04:09:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And the accompanying chart to this second paragraph shows that absolute opposition to suicide bombings among U.S. Muslims was up to 81% in 2011 from 78% in 2007, so the numbers were trending away from support for terrorism. 3% drop in 4 years. Wow. Someone must be bribing them to trend so hard. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/105 "2014-03-03T05:15:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > 3% drop in 4 years. Wow. Someone must be bribing them to trend so hard. Those that endorsed suicide bombings (in any context at all) dropped from 22% to 19%, which is to say down by 1/7th, pretty significant in only 4 years I’d say. At that rate there’d be none in 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/106 "2014-03-03T05:30:08Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Those that endorsed suicide bombings (in any context at all) dropped from 22% to 19%, which is to say down by 1/7th, pretty significant in only 4 years I’d say. At that rate there’d be none in 30 years. What do you figure the margin of error is on that poll? I am betting enough to make 3% in 4 years look unimpressive. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/107 "2014-03-03T05:41:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > 3% drop in 4 years. Wow. Someone must be bribing them to trend so hard. Straw man. The “trending” note was an off-hand comment. The more important figure notes that non-Muslim Americans are more comfortable with killing civilians than Muslim Americans are. Nice attempt to change the subject, though. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/108 "2014-03-03T12:37:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > From my earlier post: > The link takes one to an abstract page from which one can click on the [Full Report](http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/) that include the following observations: > > And the accompanying chart to this second paragraph shows that absolute opposition to suicide bombings among U.S. Muslims was up to 81% in 2011 from 78% in 2007, so the numbers were trending away from support for terrorism. I am sorry to be such a pest…the statement I’m trying to get you to support is the one you reiterated in Post 101: _"Of course, when similar questions were asked of the general American population, 24% said that bomb attacks aimed at civilians are “often or sometimes justified” while another 6% said they were “completely justified.” “So more non-Muslim Americans than Muslim Americans support violence against civilians.”_ (underlining by CP) I did look over the entire Pew report, and I just can’t seem to figure out where it gives this number, which I find extraordinary. I may be just too slow to figure this out, but it seems to me that you are saying the Pew report polling supports a notion that 24% of the general American population supports bomb attacks aimed at civilians, and 6% of them feel such attacks are completely justified. Further, it seems to me you suggest these percentages are much higher than they are within the Muslim community. Do I have that correct, and if so can you help me find it in the Pew report you cite? cp ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/109 "2014-03-03T15:05:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Straw man. > > The “trending” note was an off-hand comment. > > The more important figure notes that non-Muslim Americans are more comfortable with killing civilians than Muslim Americans are. Nice attempt to change the subject, though. It’s not a Straw Man (hint: you said something and I directly responded to it) and I’m not changing the subject anymore than your “off-hand comment” was. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/110 "2014-03-03T19:56:25Z")
I also think it’s pertinent that the question isn’t "bomb attacks aimed at civilians are “often or sometimes justified” as tomndebb has paraphrased it, it is “suicide bombing/other violence against civilians is justified to defend Islam against it’s enemies… Often/sometimes/rarely never”, and 13% American Muslims have picked Often/sometimes/rarely (almost entirely sometimes/rarely). ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/111 "2014-03-04T01:28:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What do you figure the margin of error is on that poll? I am betting enough to make 3% in 4 years look unimpressive. … or very impressive, depending on the direction of the error. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/112 "2014-03-04T03:36:00Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I am sorry to be such a pest…the statement I’m trying to get you to support is the one you reiterated in Post 101: > > _"Of course, when similar questions were asked of the general American population, 24% said that bomb attacks aimed at civilians are “often or sometimes justified” while another 6% said they were “completely justified.” > “So more non-Muslim Americans than Muslim Americans support violence against civilians.”_ (underlining by CP) > > I did look over the entire Pew report, and I just can’t seem to figure out where it gives this number, which I find extraordinary. > > I may be just too slow to figure this out, but it seems to me that you are saying the Pew report polling supports a notion that 24% of the general American population supports bomb attacks aimed at civilians, and 6% of them feel such attacks are completely justified. Further, it seems to me you suggest these percentages are much higher than they are within the Muslim community. > > Do I have that correct, and if so can you help me find it in the Pew report you cite? The general attitudes of Americans, as noted in my first post on this topic, immediately following the Pew report on Muslim American attitudes was: > [@](#): > > Of course, when similar questions were asked of the general American population, 24% said that bomb attacks aimed at civilians are “often or sometimes justified” while another 6% said they were “completely justified.” > John L. Esposito and Dalia Mogahed, _Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think_ New York: Gallup Press, 2008), 95. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/113 "2014-03-04T03:40:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s not a Straw Man (hint: you said something and I directly responded to it) and I’m not changing the subject anymore than your “off-hand comment” was. You posted a single snide comment that implied that the trend was insignificant followed by an off-topic claim that the trend was the result of bribery. Had I made a claim that the trending was significant, you might have a point, but I did not and you do not. In fact, you bring nothing of substance to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/114 "2014-03-04T04:09:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The general attitudes of Americans, as noted in my first post on this topic, immediately following the Pew report on Muslim American attitudes was: ‘Similar’ doesn’t tell you much of anything though. I can come up with plenty of scenarios in which bomb attacks on civilians can sometimes be justified, so if just asked “Can bomb attacks on civilians be justified”, I would say yes, sometimes. Are they justified in the ‘defence of Islam against its enemies’? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/115 "2014-03-04T04:20:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You posted a single snide comment that implied that the trend was insignificant followed by an off-topic claim that the trend was the result of bribery. For real? “off-topic claim”? That’s what us humans call a joke. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/116 "2014-03-04T05:15:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > For real? “off-topic claim”? That’s what us humans call a joke. So. You’ve still got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/117 "2014-03-04T05:19:01Z")
Umm, I got the point I made. That is an unimpressive “trend”. Plus, now I know you don’t get obvious jokes. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/118 "2014-03-04T05:19:51Z")
Still posting nothing of substance to the thread, of course. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/119 "2014-03-04T05:31:35Z")
Just made the one small observation that you want to make an extended blustering empty reply to. I’ll leave you to the burning question of whether Muslims are people too. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/120 "2014-03-04T13:06:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The general attitudes of Americans, as noted in my first post on this topic, immediately following the Pew report on Muslim American attitudes was: > _Of course, when similar questions were asked of the general American population, 24% said that bomb attacks aimed at civilians are “often or sometimes justified” while another 6% said they were "completely justified._" > John L. Esposito and Dalia Mogahed, Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think New York: Gallup Press, 2008), 95. I don’t have that book, but juxtaposing those two sources (the Pew report and this one) as if they created a parallel is highly suspect. Support for extremism (as demonstrated, for example, by support for the idea of a blindly-directed attack on innocents) is vastly more common among Muslims than any other broad category bounded by religions or political affiliations, and certainly more prevalent among Muslims than “the general American population.” (Would you mind listing the reference 77 which Esposito’s book is supposedly using as support for this?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=7)