# The many benefits of keeping Muslims out of Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068 "2014-02-24T05:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/161 "2014-03-10T09:26:29Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No, youth is a special case. Young people are more likely to be hotheads isn’t exactly news. heh, so maybe restrict entry to those over 50? 🙂 Not sure if these have been mentioned, but increasing Muslim numbers in Europe is a contributor to massive expenditure on anti-terrorism measures, increased criminalisation of speech and fearfulness of violence if you dare criticise the religion. > [@](#): > > Firoozeh Bazrafkan is frightened of nothing. Five foot tall, 31 years old, and so thin you think a puff of wind could blow her away, she still has the courage to be a truly radical artist and challenge those who might hurt her. She fights for women’s rights and intellectual freedom, and her background means her fight has to be directed against radical Islam. As a Danish citizen, she saw journalists go into hiding and mobs attack her country’s embassies just because Jyllands-Posten published cartoons of Muhammad that were so tame you could hardly call them ‘satirical’. Bazrafkan is also the daughter of an Iranian family, and the Islamic Republic’s subjugation of women revolts her. > > When I met her, she was enduring a crash course in politically correct Europe’s many hypocrisies. White Danes reported her to the police for writing that Muslim men abuse and murder their daughters, and adding for good measure that the ‘Koran is more immoral, deplorable and crazy than manuals of the two other global religions combined’. > > When I asked what she thought of the Danish legal system, I did not receive a long lecture on freedom of expression… > > Passion for Freedom is not devoted to anti-Islamist art. But its curators are not frightened to show it either… > > The exhibition was to open at London’s Unit 24 gallery, near Tate Modern, last Saturday. Unit 24, which boasts on its website that it is ‘fiercely independent’, pulled out with only days to go. In emails to the organisers, Unit 24 offered various justifications for wrecking a show that had taken months to arrange. ‘Enemies of the exhibition’ had made threats, and it was worried about a ‘potential terrorist attack’. Unit 24 told The Spectator it pulled the show because Passion for Freedom could not provide insurance and security. > > There was no secret about its decision. But not one of the arts correspondents for the broadsheets or BBC covered the threat to an international exhibition featuring the work of dozens of artists. I have argued many times that censorship is at its most effective when no one admits it exists. The first step to freeing yourself from oppressive power is to find the courage to admit that you are afraid. The more people confess to being afraid, the less reason there is to fear and the easier it is to isolate repressive forces. > > ‘Enemies of the exhibition’ had made threats, and it was worried about a ‘potential terrorist attack’. Unit 24 told The Spectator it pulled the show because Passion for Freedom could not provide insurance and security. > > There was no secret about its decision. But not one of the arts correspondents for the broadsheets or BBC covered the threat to an international exhibition featuring the work of dozens of artists. I have argued many times that censorship is at its most effective when no one admits it exists. The first step to freeing yourself from oppressive power is to find the courage to admit that you are afraid. The more people confess to being afraid, the less reason there is to fear and the easier it is to isolate repressive forces. > > But the radical poses of western intellectuals make a frank discussion of fear impossible. For how can they say they are brave dissidents one minute, and confess they are scared of theocratic thugs the next? In 2007, Grayson Perry was an exception. He said he would damn Christianity in his art, but had ‘not gone all out attacking Islamism because I feel the real fear that someone will slit my throat’… ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/162 "2014-03-10T10:24:26Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Not sure if these have been mentioned, but increasing Muslim numbers in Europe is a contributor to massive expenditure on anti-terrorism measures I’m not sure I’d agree. Anti-terrorism expenditures have been increasing because many countries **worlwide** decided to embark on a fuzzy and overall pointless ‘War on Terror’. Countries like Pakistan, Uzbekistan or Malaysia have also been spending tonnes on anti-terrorism measures even though they haven’t been receiving much Muslim migration. The real question is whether terrorism itself has become a bigger problem due to increasing Muslim numbers. I’ve yet to see proof that terrorist attacks are more common today than they were 20 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/163 "2014-03-10T10:27:49Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Not sure if these have been mentioned, but increasing Muslim numbers in Europe is a contributor to massive expenditure on anti-terrorism measures, increased criminalisation of speech and fearfulness of violence if you dare criticise the religion. Baseless paranoia as its own justification. How wonderful. The evidence already provided in this thread is that the overwhelming majority of Muslim immigrants are assimilating as Europeans very nicely. Using fears that they might not be assimilating (when they actually are) to justify discrimination against them hardly seems to be a rational response. The U.S. tried that with Asian immigrants, first the Chinese and later the Japanese, and history has demonstrated that the Asian exclusion laws protected no one and simply demonstrated that any large number of people can be led by the nose to persecute minorities in their midst. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/164 "2014-03-10T10:50:35Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Eh. It’s quite simple to separate them in the case of Islam and Hinduism. I was thinking in terms of territorial bickering with Pakistan and/or the kerfluffle over Kashmir ; which I tend to see sort of like the conflicts in Ireland or Israel/Palestine : yes, they’re religious. They’re also cultural, political and ultimately \*really \*about old grudges being handed down and revered like they’re fucking family heirlooms. That being said, I’ll readily admit that I don’t know very much about your country and you’d know best. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/165 "2014-03-10T17:36:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I was thinking in terms of territorial bickering with Pakistan and/or the kerfluffle over Kashmir ; which I tend to see sort of like the conflicts in Ireland or Israel/Palestine : yes, they’re religious. They’re also cultural, political and ultimately \*really \*about old grudges being handed down and revered like they’re fucking family heirlooms. > > That being said, I’ll readily admit that I don’t know very much about your country and you’d know best. I think the distinction between religion and culture is false, especially the further you go back in history. Most culture tends to be inextricably tied up with religion. As for the politics angle, I agree that it’s not really about religion per se, it’s just people seeking power blah blah. So in the case of Pakistan and India, sure Jinnah was personally ambitious and his backers were rich Muslim landlords who wanted political influence after the British left, and that’s what funded and motivated the leadership of the Muslim league and led to the formation of Pakistan. But even after conceding all that, I still submit that religion(and perhaps Islam more than just ‘religion’) cannot escape blame as it serves as one of the primary tools in engendering conflict. It is a natural tendency of human beings to split the world into ‘us’ and ‘them’. The religious and cultural institutions that we have can either reinforce or weaken that tendency. Islam in particular seems to make it worse, with its strong focus on religious identity. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s probably how the religion became so successful in the first place. But in today’s world I think it’s harmful. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/166 "2014-03-10T17:43:09Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Right from the Muslim league in pre independence India and partition, to modern India in cases like Shah Bano(a 62-year-old Muslim, divorced by her husband in 1978 but even after winning the case at the Supreme court of India was subsequently denied alimony because the Indian Parliament reversed the judgement under pressure of Islamic orthodoxy [Mohd. Ahmed Khan v. Shah Bano Begum - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohd._Ahmed_Khan_v._Shah_Bano_Begum)) and banning of the Satanic verses, the evident success of Muslim groups in getting their way in India has inspired an attempt to introduce similarly aggressive and intolerant elements to Hinduism, which is a pity, because Hinduism is otherwise quite divergent from Islam. Hindu fundamentalism is older than Islamic fundamentalism in India. Hindu nationalism goes back to the 1930s. Islamic fundamentalism is a more recent thing, and arguably was a response to noxious neofascists like Savarkar. India has also banned works of art that criticized Hinduism and Christianity (IIRC they banned Last Temptation of Christ), so it’s not a pro-Muslim thing, it’s a ‘keeping the peace’ thing. Also, there are between 5 and 6 times as many Hindus in India as there are Muslims, so I’m much more afraid of the damage that Hindu nationalists could do to Muslims, Christians and others, than the other way round. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/167 "2014-03-10T18:13:56Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Hindu fundamentalism is older than Islamic fundamentalism in India. Hindu nationalism goes back to the 1930s. Islamic fundamentalism is a more recent thing, and arguably was a response to noxious neofascists like Savarkar. > > India has also banned works of art that criticized Hinduism and Christianity (IIRC they banned Last Temptation of Christ), so it’s not a pro-Muslim thing, it’s a ‘keeping the peace’ thing. > > Also, there are between 5 and 6 times as many Hindus in India as there are Muslims, so I’m much more afraid of the damage that Hindu nationalists could do to Muslims, Christians and others, than the other way round. Back to the 1930s eh? So…not predating the Muslim league then? And if you would only read my comment carefully, I too am more concerned about Hindu fundamentalism. But it most definitely is a response to Islamic fundamentalism, and built around very similar precepts. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/168 "2014-03-10T18:52:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Hindu fundamentalism is older than Islamic fundamentalism in India. Hindu nationalism goes back to the 1930s. Islamic fundamentalism is a more recent thing, and arguably was a response to noxious neofascists like Savarkar. I went and looked up Savarkar, and I quote from his book “Hindutva: What is a Hindu”. It is attempting, almost explicitly, to create an identity for Hindus similar to Islam’s. Interestingly, he was an atheist. > [@](#): > > It may be that at some future time the word Hindu may come to indicate a citizen of Hindusthan and nothing else; that day can only rise when all cultural and religious bigotry has disbanded its forces pledged to aggressive egoism, and religions cease to be ‘ isms ‘ and become merely the common fund of eternal principles that lie at the root of all that are a common foundation on which the human State majestically and firmly rests. But as even the first streaks of this consummation, so devoutly to be wished for, are scarcely discernible on the horizon, it would be folly for us to ignore stern realities. As long as every other ‘ism’ has not disowned its special dogmas, which ever tend into dangerous war cries, so long no cultural or national unit can afford to loosen the bonds. especially those of a common name and a common Banner, that are the mighty sources of organic cohesion and strength." ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/169 "2014-03-10T20:22:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The evidence already provided in this thread is that the overwhelming majority of Muslim immigrants are assimilating as Europeans very nicely. Majority? Sure. Overwhelming majority? [I don’t think so](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/170 "2014-03-11T02:49:26Z")
Yea, Savarkar was an atheist. which almost makes him more creepy in my book, he was stirring up religious passions in the name of a faith in which he didn’t believe. he reminds me a bit of Charles Maurras in Europe, the atheist advocate of reactionary Catholic ultranationalism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/171 "2014-03-11T03:32:55Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Majority? Sure. Overwhelming majority? [I don’t think so](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU). Sorry. Pointing to one loon with a YouTube following hardly overturns the actual evidence provided by multiple polls and surveys throughout Europe. Note that in country after country examined in the several surveys I noted in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17148755#post17148755), Muslims provided similar answers in the same proportions as their non-Muslim neighbors. Unless you can provide serious survey results that contradict all the posted surveys, you are allowing yourself to be led astray by mere demagoguery. In none of those polls has European Muslim opposition to assimilation reached even 10%. That is overwhelming. (In several of the surveys, Muslim immigrants actually posted more favorably about their host countries than those countries native citizens did. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/172 "2014-03-11T04:06:39Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Yea, Savarkar was an atheist. which almost makes him more creepy in my book, he was stirring up religious passions in the name of a faith in which he didn’t believe. he reminds me a bit of Charles Maurras in Europe, the atheist advocate of reactionary Catholic ultranationalism. He’s not really stirring up religious passions though. He’s trying to build a cultural and nationalist identity, based on geographic origin, not religion. So religions that find an origin in India, like Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism are explicitly ok in his book, and Islam is not. A sort of ‘original inhabitant’ view. And this is essentially a reaction to the various wars of conquest that India faced, and as I’ve highlighted in the passage I quoted above, the aggression that they were still facing. The Muslim league was the first attempt to politicise religion in the subcontinent and it directly inspired political responses to it, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Hindu fundamentalism of the sort that Savarkar represented would have had little purchase on its own. Even _with_ all the rather extreme events to react to(partition, Pakistan’s recurring jihad, ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri pundits) , it hasn’t had all that much purchase. There is no mainstream appeal for Hinduism as a political organising principle in India today. The prime ministerial candidate of the ‘Hindu’ right barely, if ever, invokes religion. I submit that this is a function of institutions. Hinduism provides less fertile ground for extremism and politicisation, Islam provides more. And the ‘Hindu’ fundamentalists like Savarkar saw this and attempted(and are attempting) to change it. It has always struck me as one of the great ironies of our time that in their chosen path of reacting to Islam, they are becoming exactly what they profess to most despise. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/173 "2014-03-11T04:19:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorry. Pointing to one loon with a YouTube following hardly overturns the actual evidence provided by multiple polls and surveys throughout Europe. > > Note that in country after country examined in the several surveys I noted in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17148755#post17148755), Muslims provided similar answers in the same proportions as their non-Muslim neighbors. Unless you can provide serious survey results that contradict all the posted surveys, you are allowing yourself to be led astray by mere demagoguery. In none of those polls has European Muslim opposition to assimilation reached even 10%. That is overwhelming. (In several of the surveys, Muslim immigrants actually posted more favorably about their host countries than those countries native citizens did. Are you excluding Britain from Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/174 "2014-03-11T18:17:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorry. Pointing to one loon with a YouTube following hardly overturns the actual evidence provided by multiple polls and surveys throughout Europe. > > Note that in country after country examined in the several surveys I noted in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17148755#post17148755), Muslims provided similar answers in the same proportions as their non-Muslim neighbors. Unless you can provide serious survey results that contradict all the posted surveys, you are allowing yourself to be led astray by mere demagoguery. In none of those polls has European Muslim opposition to assimilation reached even 10%. That is overwhelming. (In several of the surveys, Muslim immigrants actually posted more favorably about their host countries than those countries native citizens did. The ones being led astray by demagoguery are those Norwegian Muslims who [publicly expressed support for the death penalty for homosexuals and adulterers.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bV710c1dgpU#t=242) So what exactly are you arguing here? That these radical proclamations by Islam Net and Fahad Qureshi do not embody the views of a sizable and vocal minority of Norwegian Muslims, or that that the views are somehow not extremist? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/175 "2014-03-11T19:05:50Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The ones being led astray by demagoguery are those Norwegian Muslims who [publicly expressed support for the death penalty for homosexuals and adulterers.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bV710c1dgpU#t=242) > > So what exactly are you arguing here? That these radical proclamations by Islam Net and Fahad Qureshi do not embody the views of a sizable and vocal minority of Norwegian Muslims, or that that the views are somehow not extremist? The fact that these radical proclamations exist doesn’t mean that they are supported by many. Since you bring out the Norwegian example: the fact that a right-wing bell-end went out and killed 70 people at Utøya doesn’t mean that there are many in Norway who support those tactics. Isolated incidents do not make for good evidence ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/176 "2014-03-11T20:34:09Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > So what exactly are you arguing here? That these radical proclamations by Islam Net and Fahad Qureshi do not embody the views of a sizable and vocal minority of Norwegian Muslims, or that that the views are somehow not extremist? What are YOU arguing by pointing to the opinions of a “sizeable and vocal minority” in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/177 "2014-03-11T21:28:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What are YOU arguing by pointing to the opinions of a “sizeable and vocal minority” in the first place? I dunno what he’s arguing, but if I were responsible for British immigration policy, I would be considering at least temporarily reducing immigration from countries/groups that may feed extremism. It should be possible to do it without a fallout in terms of discrimination against immigrant groups already in the country, by not targeting them explicitly. This may in fact already be happening > [@](#): > > Since 2010 there has been a marked decline in non-EU net immigration. As a proportion of non-British immigration to the UK, it has dropped from 73% in June 2010 to 57% in June 2013. In the last year alone, it has fallen from 172,000 to 140,000. > Meanwhile, this year, net migration from the EU has gone up by 72,000 to 106,000. > > - See more at: [http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/11/net-immigration-into-the-uk.html#sthash.eZNOmHiC.dpuf](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/11/net-immigration-into-the-uk.html#sthash.eZNOmHiC.dpuf) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/178 "2014-03-11T21:42:41Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The ones being led astray by demagoguery are those Norwegian Muslims who [publicly expressed support for the death penalty for homosexuals and adulterers.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bV710c1dgpU#t=242) > > So what exactly are you arguing here? That these radical proclamations by Islam Net and Fahad Qureshi do not embody the views of a sizable and vocal minority of Norwegian Muslims, or that that the views are somehow not extremist? You attempted to make a distinction between a “majority” and an “overwhelming majority” without setting any definitions in place. Based on the fact that I have seen no attitudinal survey of any Muslim community in Europe that differs from their non-Muslim fellow countrymen by more than single digit percentages, I maintain that “overwhelming majority” is the apt description of Muslims who are assimilating in Europe. One can find extreme views among small clusters of people in any community. If those numbers amount to fewer than 10% of that population, I consider the majority view to be overwhelming. It would appear that your actual point was to promote fear of Islam or Muslims even when the proponents of radical/Fundamentalist/Salafist Islam are a minuscule (if loud) minority of the Muslim population in Europe. Unless you provide serious numbers instead of staged YouTube events, I dismiss your claims as unsupported. The Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nation, (The Tea Party 😉 ), and similar groups are loud in the U.S. None of them demonstrate that this country is in danger of being overrun by Right Wing extremists. So, too, Qureshi and his merry band of zealots fail to represent any movement by other Muslims in Europe to refuse to assimilate. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/179 "2014-03-12T00:15:37Z")
I’m very much on **tomndebb** ’s side here, but I would like to point out that no one should _have_ to assimilate, just refrain from running amok and hurting innocent people. We’re not the Borg, and if someone wears a hijab and worships Allah while another wears a necktie and worships next quarter’s P&L, neither is anyone else’s affair. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068/180 "2014-03-12T01:04:31Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > I’m very much on **tomndebb** ’s side here, but I would like to point out that no one should _have_ to assimilate, just refrain from running amok and hurting innocent people. We’re not the Borg, and if someone wears a hijab and worships Allah while another wears a necktie and worships next quarter’s P&L, neither is anyone else’s affair. This is true only if you hold that cultural values held by the population don’t have any externalities(beyond just running amok and hurting people i.e, which are also externalities). If you think that cultural values affect things like institutional functioning, economic success and in general how a society fares in the long term (and there are some good theoretical models and evidence that suggest they do), then there is every reason for successful countries to want immigrants from less successful countries to assimilate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-many-benefits-of-keeping-muslims-out-of-europe/682068.md?page=10)