# The mark of Cain **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607 "2019-08-13T15:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/41 "2019-08-15T02:03:43Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Wiki says one study reports a mutation rate of one per 8000 years. One \*what \*? Anyway, the claim that Mitochondrial DNA doesn’t mutate is nonsense. It mutates at a known rate. By examining the mitochondria of two individuals, or two populations, scientists can estimate how long ago they had a common ancestor. All currently alive humans are descended from a [single female](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve)about 150,000 years ago. If the DNA didn’t change then we would all have the same mitochondria . Which we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/42 "2019-08-15T03:11:12Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > One \*what \*? One synonymous substitution. They go on to say that there isn’t a single rate parameter over all sites, though, more like 3 different subclasses of sites with 3 different synonymous substitution rates. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/43 "2019-08-15T05:18:21Z")
> [@Dana\_Scully](#): > > I know the LDS church taught for years that being black was the mark of Cain and restricted membership of anyone who could be considered black from any kind of priesthood. In 1978, they decided the time was right to end that restriction. (Honestly this ISN’T a religious argument; I’m simply citing one hypothesis.) Joseph Smith started with a frontier developed theology and then took it off in his own direction. The theology for the Mormon position never really made clear. Smith would typically adapt existing local beliefs and then claim a Biblical basis, going so far as to rewrite the Bible (the Joseph Smith Translation, which is not a new translation but simply rewritten to fit his ideas) as well wrote new scriptures, the most famous of which is the Book of Mormon. Two of those books are the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith tied the idea of dark skin to a curse from God as a punishment in the Book of Mormon. > [@Book of Mormon](#): > > “. . . wherefore, as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them (2 Nephi 5:21).” That was in the summer of 1829, before the church was started. Later, we wrote the other books. > [@](#): > > “. . . there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people . . . (Moses 7:8).” > “And . . . they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them (Moses 7:22).” and > [@](#): > > “. . . from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land (Abraham 1:24).” > "Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, . . . Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, . . . but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood. > “Now, Pharaoh being of the lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, . . . (Abraham 1:26-27).” As Mormons believed that these new scriptures were more trustworthy than the Bible, they really didn’t get too much into the debate between the mark of Cain and the Curse of Ham. With the new scriptures and more importantly modern revelation which trumped scripture then the Biblical basis was no really important. When I was growing up in in the 60s and 70s, it was the common belief that the Blacks were denied the priesthood (for the men, and the saving ordinances of the temple for both genders) because the blacks had not been valiant in the Great War in the Pre-existence (were we all were prior to coming to this Earth) and as such were given this curse. Different Mormon prophets have interpreted the “priesthood ban” differently. Joseph Smith allowed at least one black man to have the priesthood, but his successor, Brigham Young was much more racist. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/44 "2019-08-15T05:28:59Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Who standardized these marks, and how are random people expected to see them and know the meaning? In a pre-literate society, at that. Pre-literate doesn’t mean there were no standard marks. You may find this video about [cave symbols](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJnEQCMA5Sg) interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/45 "2019-08-15T10:14:33Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I don’t believe there was an historical Cain. I don’t believe any of the of the Bible literally. I was offering a guess like everyone else in this thread. That said, the story probably came from some event. > > I didn’t mean to suggest I thought the mark was racially motivated. In fact I was just passing along what I had read. It’s been many years since I read Ishmael and I don’t recall all of the details. But I think the gist of it was that the agriculture group (who just happened to be light skinned) used up all the land for crops thus denying the pastoralists. I’ve heard the theory that the story was supposed to be a fable about the conflict between farmers and herders; it’s just that in the Bronze Age Middle East, both those groups were the same color. The pastoralist/agriculturalist theory is interesting: according to it, the original Israelites were desert pastoralists who invaded, conquered and eventually absorbed the agriculturalist Canaanites. That’s why they had stories about how herders were preferred by God and that the farmers had done them wrong; it’s also why so many biblical heroes were shepherds, including King David himself. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/46 "2019-08-15T10:16:32Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > When I was growing up in in the 60s and 70s, it was the common belief that the Blacks were denied the priesthood (for the men, and the saving ordinances of the temple for both genders) because the blacks had not been valiant in the Great War in the Pre-existence (where we all were prior to coming to this Earth) and as such were given this curse. > > Different Mormon prophets have interpreted the “priesthood ban” differently. Joseph Smith allowed at least one black man to have the priesthood, but his successor, Brigham Young was much more racist. It really needs to be pointed out that there is discrimination in the phrasing of the ban. Not only was it a ban on the priesthood for males (Mormonism believes in a universal priesthood for all males age 12 and above, rather than just the clergy) but as I wrote above, blacks of both genders were not permitted in the temple, where the full ordinances are performed. Mormonism is unique among Christian faiths in believing that ordinary people have the ability to become gods and goddesses. However blacks of both genders were not permitted to receive these ordinances. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/47 "2019-08-15T10:19:56Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Mormonism is unique among Christian faiths in believing that ordinary people have the ability to become gods and goddesses. Isn’t that because most Christian faiths are (nominally) monotheistic? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/48 "2019-08-15T12:52:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Isn’t that because most Christian faiths are (nominally) monotheistic? I believe so. Joseph Smith started teaching the doctrine that people could have "exaltation” e.g. become like God, shortly before he was killed. His successor, Brigham Young went of to further develop the theory into what is now referred to that the Adam-God doctrine or theory, in which Young taught that Adam was actually God. That is, God took one of his many wives, and because Adam and Eve. Later prophets rejected that and it was actually considered heretical to teach it. [/hijack] Back to the blacks and the question in the OP. A black woman was “sealed” to Smith as a servant for him for all eternity. > [@](#): > > Jane Elizabeth Manning James (May 11, 1813 – April 16, 1908),[1][2] fondly known as “Aunt Jane”,[3] was one of the first recorded African-American women to enter Utah.[4]:32–34 She was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and lived with Joseph Smith and his family for a time in Nauvoo, Illinois.[5] She traveled with her husband to Utah, spending the winter of 1846–1847 at Winter Quarters. She petitioned the First Presidency to be endowed and sealed; as a result of her requests she was adopted as a servant into the Joseph Smith family through a specially created temple ceremony. Not satisfied to be an eternal servant in the Smith family, she continued to petition to receive her own temple endowment but was denied these rites during her lifetime. She was posthumously endowed by proxy in 1979. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/49 "2019-08-15T15:08:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’ve heard the theory that the story was supposed to be a fable about the conflict between farmers and herders; it’s just that in the Bronze Age Middle East, both those groups were the same color. > > The pastoralist/agriculturalist theory is interesting: according to it, the original Israelites were desert pastoralists who invaded, conquered and eventually absorbed the agriculturalist Canaanites. That’s why they had stories about how herders were preferred by God and that the farmers had done them wrong; it’s also why so many biblical heroes were shepherds, including King David himself. As I understand it, archaeologists currently favor that the idea that Israelites lived on the fringes of Canaanite society, like the Travelers in the British Isles, or the Gypsies in continental Europe. Archaeologists have not found any evidence of a sudden conquest. As you move from more ancient sites to more modern sites, the number of Canaanite artifacts gradually decreases, and the number of Israelite artifacts gradually increases. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/50 "2019-08-15T16:00:07Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > There are several thoughts in Jewish oral tradition (Talmud and Midrash) as to exactly what the “mark of Cain” was. The ones I’m familiar with are: > > [ul] > [li]A letter of G-d’s holy name on his forehead[/ul][/li] Must have been the letter “hey” for “hey, don’t kill me.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/51 "2019-08-15T16:52:27Z")
From the Wiki: > [@](#): > > There is no clear consensus as to what Cain’s mark was. The word translated as “mark” in Genesis 4:15 is א֔וֹת (’ōṯ), which could mean a sign, omen, warning, remembrance, motion, gesture, agreement, miracle, wonder, or, most commonly, a letter. Barring the discovery of a more definitive source, I don’t think a factual answer is to be found. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/52 "2019-08-16T01:49:55Z")
Dorjan: > [@](#): > > Who standardized these marks, and how are random people expected to see them and know the meaning? In a pre-literate society, at that. Well, in the Genesis story, that would be G-d. Pre-literate? Adam had a language in which he named all of the Earth’s creatures. Of course, that’s not how science and history would view the first human beings, but the whole idea of a symbol from G-d is kind of outside that realm already. Derleth: > [@](#): > > Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel. Their wives? Plothole. Deal with it. It’s not a plot hole. They married their sisters. It says explicitly in the Bible that Adam and Eve had daughters (Genesis 5:4). ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/53 "2019-08-16T02:07:41Z")
How could it have anything to do with race? The Mark of Cain is a story from Genesis, and according to Genesis, all of Cain’s descendants were wiped out in the Flood. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/54 "2019-08-16T03:11:16Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > How could it have anything to do with race? The Mark of Cain is a story from Genesis, and according to Genesis, all of Cain’s descendants were wiped out in the Flood. Genesis says that all Cain’s descendants were wiped out in the flood? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/55 "2019-08-16T03:22:02Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Genesis says that all Cain’s descendants were wiped out in the flood? Well, it says that only Noah and family survived… > [@GOD @Genesis 6 and 7](#): > > so God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. > > \ > > On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark which - if GOD’s curse is to be believed - > [@GOD @ Genesis 4](#): > > 5 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. Did God suffer vengence seven times over? How dd Cain survive the flood? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/56 "2019-08-16T03:42:35Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Did God suffer vengence seven times over? How dd Cain survive the flood? Cain and his brothers would have long since been dead. According to _Genesis_, Seth lived about 900 years, and Noah was the 10th in a line of patriarchs from Adam. Noah didn’t have children until he was 500, so Adam’s children were just dust by then. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/57 "2019-08-16T03:58:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’ve heard the theory that the story was supposed to be a fable about the conflict between farmers and herders; it’s just that in the Bronze Age Middle East, both those groups were the same color. > > The pastoralist/agriculturalist theory is interesting: according to it, the original Israelites were desert pastoralists who invaded, conquered and eventually absorbed the agriculturalist Canaanites. That’s why they had stories about how herders were preferred by God and that the farmers had done them wrong; it’s also why so many biblical heroes were shepherds, including King David himself. According to the rabbi who taught the “History of Judaism” course I took as an undergrad, that’s why the Israelites kept slipping into the idolatry their prophets so often denounced: being pastoralists, they had to learn agriculture from the resident Canaanites. “First you build a terrace to keep water in. Then you break up the ground with a hoe. Then you sow your seed. Then you sacrifice a goat to Ba’al Hadad. Then you wait for Dagon to send rains…” I don’t know if this was an actual historical theory, or he was just pulling it out of his ass, but it sounded plausible. Less so now that we have better evidence that the Israelites developed from native Canaanite tribes, rather than being invaders from elsewhere; but if they learned agriculture from other Canaanite tribes, then it could have happened that way. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/58 "2019-08-16T04:33:26Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Cain and his brothers would have long since been dead. According to _Genesis_, Seth lived about 900 years, and Noah was the 10th in a line of patriarchs from Adam. Noah didn’t have children until he was 500, so Adam’s children were just dust by then. While that is almost certainly true, the Bible doesn’t say how long Cain lived, so it’s barely possible he died in the Flood. Methuselah died in the year of the Flood\*, so maybe he drowned, too – the cause of his death is not given. The Bible does say\* that Shem didn’t die until Jacob, eleven generations later, was 50 years old, which means that Shem outlived Abraham by 35 years. Even Noah was still around until Abraham was 58 years old. Strangely, there is no mention of any interaction between Shem and his descendants over the 500 years of his life following the Flood. - It doesn’t say it explicitly, but if you do the math from the dates of birth and death given in Gen 5, 11, 21, and 25, that’s what you get. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/59 "2019-08-16T04:54:30Z")
The point is that if you take Genesis to be true (and I don’t) then it makes no sense to claim that people living today with a particular skin color are descendants of Cain, with their skin color being “the mark.” Because regardless of whether Cain was alive at the time of the flood or not, he and all of his issue (Noah being a descendant of Seth) would surely have been dead in the flood. So none of his descendants would be alive to populate the earth as this race or that today. If you accept that Genesis is true (which, again, I don’t). ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607/60 "2019-08-16T04:59:46Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > The Bible does say\* that Shem didn’t die until Jacob, eleven generations later, was 50 years old, which means that Shem outlived Abraham by 35 years. Even Noah was still around until Abraham was 58 years old. Strangely, there is no mention of any interaction between Shem and his descendants over the 500 years of his life following the Flood. > > - It doesn’t say it explicitly, but if you do the math from the dates of birth and death given in Gen 5, 11, 21, and 25, that’s what you get. Interesting! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mark-of-cain/838607.md?page=4)