# The Marvelous Ms. Marvel **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, disney-hulu\ **Created:** [March 15, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116 "2022-03-15T15:05:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/281 "2023-06-30T03:32:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > As previously noted, they tried to squeeze in way too many storylines into a short series - the origin story, the “NJ Muslim culture” story, the family backstory, the evil beings from another dimension story, the menacing government story, and of course various teen romantic shenanigans (plus that utterly unnecessary Home Alone-ing of the school). Had they cut out a few of those, they could have had a much better series. …I argued in one of the AI threads that the problem with Ms Marvel stemmed primarily by Marvels decisions to forgo the traditional writers-room lead Showrunner. Big post below. > **** > > > [@Writers Guild of America goes on strike (5/2/23) tentative deal (9/25/23) Now accepted (10/9/23)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/writers-guild-of-america-goes-on-strike-5-2-23-tentative-deal-9-25-23-now-accepted-10-9-23/983448/75): > > > > And probably the easiest ways to show exactly how that is happening is to look at what is happening with the Marvel TV shows. > > > > In the traditional model you might get a writer or a writing team pitch an idea for a show, and if it goes into development, a Showrunner is appointed, they build a writers room, and they start the process of [breaking the story](https://screencraft.org/blog/5-ways-to-break-story-for-your-movie-or-tv-show-idea/). Breaking the story is a critical part of the process. It’s how the show _defines_ itself. It’s how a script or a show becomes _more_ than just the log-line. > > > > From there different writers would get allocated their episodes to write…but that doesn’t mean that the writer then disappears to a log cabin and knocks out their scripts overnight. The continue to break the story…this time instead of the breaking the direction of the show they are breaking down the direction of each script. They work through many the plot beats together, making sure the themes and the tone and the characters match the blueprint. > > > > When the show goes into production, the Showrunner is still in charge. The Showrunner in television is the boss. They almost always come from the writers room. They are responsible for the show. In film the director calls the shots. When we think of film, we think of the Steven Speilbergs or the Alfred Hitchcocks, we don’t think of the Matt Charman’s or the Joseph Stefano’s. > > > > In television that dynamic is reversed. Its the J . Michael Straczynski’s or the Joss Whedons that are the household names, not the David J Eagles or the David Grossmans. > > > > In television, the Showrunner manages the production. They keep the story on track. And the writers are still very much part of the production. In the traditional model, one of the writers was always on set, typically the writer of that particular episode, but not always. And the reason for this was two-fold: it allows the script to be re-written or new lines added as need be, and it gives the writer valuable experience in what actually happens when their script goes into production. > > > > So what model do the studios want to move towards? > > > > There is a move to make a clear demarcation between the writers room and everything else. And we can see this most clearly with the Marvel TV shows. > > > > Each Marvel show gets allocated a couple of executive producers. For the Falcon and the Winter Soldier it was Alonso and D’Esposito. For Ms Marvel it was Alonso > > and Winderbaum. They oversee the production, taking on many of the roles that you would typically see being done by the Showrunner. > > > > And the way each show was produced was much closer to a feature film production than a television show. The scripts would get written, then handed to the production team where the directors would take over. The “Creator” of each show doesn’t really fill the role of Showrunner any more. They are the Head Writer, they lead the writers room, they hand over the finished scripts to the production team then the _director_ takes charge, with the executive producers overseeing the process. > > > > On paper, this could work. And I think that the best of the Marvel TV shows (IMHO), Wandavision and Loki, show how it could work. Both of these shows (along with Falcon and the Winter Soldier) only had a single director, Kate Herron for Loki, Matt Shakman for Wandavision and Kari Skogland for FATWS. > > > > And that singularity of vision made a strong difference because as a story, Wandavision and Loki both held together tonally from beginning to end. So in theory, this model could work. > > > > But the realities of making a television show quickly caught up with Marvel. Episodes of television have to go through a pre-production process, then go into production, then into post. So in television you would have all of these things happening at the same time. One director would be working pre-production, another director on location shooting the show, another director working with the editing team helping them to put it together. > > > > And so the television show Ms Marvel didn’t have a single director. It had three different directing teams, all of them extremely talented and very good at what they do, but they weren’t singing from the “same songbook.” > > > > The two episodes directed by El Arbi and Fallah (episode 1 and episode 6) work really well together. So do the episodes by Obaid-Chinoy (episodes 4 and 6), and to a lesser extent (but not in any way her fault) the two episodes by Menon (episodes 2 and 3). > > > > But as a whole? The show doesn’t work. Entire character arcs are introduced, played out and ended in the blink of an eye. Tonally things are all over the place. The playful sense of delight that we get in the first episode just disappears and doesn’t really come back until the finale. > > > > Its a mess. > > > > Because the “showrunners” here, the executive producers, are working from within a box. They paint with a broad brush. Fortunately they are fans of the genre, very experienced at what they do, so what we got wasn’t as bad as it could have been. > > > > But they literally don’t have the same skllset that a Showrunner from the writers room would have. And part of that job is making sure that once a show goes into production things adjust and pivot and are tweaked so that the story continues to make sense. They see the bigger picture because they _created_ that bigger picture. The directors can’t see that picture, because they are only seeing what is happening in the episodes they direct. And the producers can’t see that picture because that _isn’t_ what they are good at. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/282 "2023-06-30T04:57:09Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Zenobia Shroff I already thought she was great in _The Big Sick_. When I first saw that she was in this series, I thought, well she’s in this so it already has that going for it. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2023, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/283 "2023-07-13T04:16:23Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I also don’t like the erasure of the In-Humans. So (spoilers for a new Ms Marvel comic issue) the funeral issue has come out. Attending were her “normal” friends and representation from the Champions, Avengers, and X-Men, but no trace or mention of Inhumans. Also, ([spoilery link](https://screenrant.com/ms-marvel-funeral-bonus-page-cyclops-mutant-resurrection/)). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2023, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/284 "2023-07-18T19:09:30Z")
[Ms. Marvel is going to be co-writing _Ms. Marvel_.](https://ew.com/books/iman-vellani-writing-new-ms-marvel-comic/) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/285 "2023-07-19T11:11:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Could you tell me what you like about the character? I’ve only seen her in the movies, and I can’t say I find her very compelling. Besides the fact that she doesn’t seem to have any discernable personality traits, in terms of powers she’s basically Superman without the weaknesses - and the weaknesses are what make Superman interesting. She’s basically the “cleaning up everyone else’s bullshit” character without the posing, grandstanding or monologuing that even Superman falls prey to. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/286 "2023-07-19T12:39:30Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > She’s basically the “cleaning up everyone else’s bullshit” character without the posing, grandstanding or monologuing that even Superman falls prey to. So everyone else has the challenges and dramatic arc and character development, and she’d just the deus ex machina? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/287 "2023-07-19T12:48:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So everyone else has the challenges and dramatic arc and character development, and she’d just the deus ex machina? …Captain Marvel had challenges and a dramatic arc and character development. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/288 "2023-07-19T12:53:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …Captain Marvel had challenges and a dramatic arc and character development. That’s not what you said - you said she cleans up other people’s messes. What challenges does she face? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/289 "2023-07-19T12:56:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s not what you said - you said she cleans up other people’s messes. …I didn’t say that. > [@Alessan](#): > > What challenges does she face? This twitter thread says it all best: > [@Genetic Gen](#): > > Male heroes often don’t have powers, then get powers, then change as people. With great power comes great responsibility etc. Power fantasy and the emotional challenges that come with having these powers > > Danvers’ arc is coming to realise and then address that institutions & shit men around her won’t LET her grow. That’s the fucking point > > At the start of the film she has powers. She’s told by a powerful man in her life that she only has the powers because they gave them to her. With his own blood no less. And he tries to stop her realising how powerful she is. Also always telling her to calm down, not be emotional > > In reality it’s the literal opposite. They’re actually limiting her power. The device on her neck that they tell her is needed to control her power is literally just there to stop her from reaching her true potential. The institution won’t let her grow > > … > > Danvers doesn’t become a powerful woman. She IS a powerful woman! But some dick is telling her she’s not. Some institution has policies in place to hold her back. Her emotional arc doesn’t come from gaining power but realising they’re working to limit her potential More at the link. [https://twitter.com/GeneticJen/status/1113715734746750976?ref\_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1113715734746750976|twgr^5ca1c3b3f949bf8d769b07874a3fc3002060c687|twcon^s1\_&ref\_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickfilosopher.com%2F2019%2F04%2Fcurated-explaining-captain-marvels-vitally-important-gamechanging-character-arc.html](https://twitter.com/GeneticJen/status/1113715734746750976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1113715734746750976%7Ctwgr%5E5ca1c3b3f949bf8d769b07874a3fc3002060c687%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickfilosopher.com%2F2019%2F04%2Fcurated-explaining-captain-marvels-vitally-important-gamechanging-character-arc.html) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/290 "2023-07-19T13:32:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I didn’t say that. Sorry - I thought you were @gyrate. I admit: I wasn’t crazy about the _Captain Marvel_ film. I though it was unfocused, poorly written and poorly cast. I also thought that the film didn’t make its feminist case as well as it wanted to. I’m a man, so I may have missed several subtleties, but I never really felt they were repressing her because she was female, rather that they were repressing her because she was _human_. The Kree didn’t come off as particularly misogynistic - there were woman on her original team, who were treated as equals - and the Jude Law character, instead of coming across as an agent of the patriarchy, was just a standard “evil mentor” type, like Liam Neeson in _Batman Begins_. In other words, they could have made Carol Danvers’ character male and kept basically the same plot, with some minor changes; not that they should have, of course, just that her gender didn’t come across as that important an issue. That said, sure, she had a character arc in the movie. I’m not arguing she didn’t have one. My problem is this: where do we go from here? We have a character who is invulnerable to everything and can literally punch through space battleships. She has no Kryptonite, no secret identity, no aversion to killing. What challenges can she possibly face? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/291 "2023-07-19T13:47:42Z")
The Twitter thread @Banquet_Bear posted is precisely my view. As to where she goes from here: being all-powerful doesn’t mean you can do anything you want, solve every problem, or always know the right thing to do. It doesn’t mean you never make mistakes or act out in anger, confusion or ignorance. She can punch a spaceship but she still has “real people” problems. Most people don’t have kryptonite issues. They have life issues. Captain Marvel will still have those, even though they may be on a different scale. And being responsible for multiple worlds only makes that harder. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/292 "2023-07-19T13:51:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m a man, so I may have missed several subtleties, …well that was kinda the point of my link. > [@Alessan](#): > > but I never really felt they were repressing her because she was female, rather that they were repressing her because she was _human_. Thats just how storytelling _works_. The X-men told a story about racism without specifically being about racism. > [@Alessan](#): > > That said, sure, she had a character arc in the movie. I’m not arguing she didn’t have one. My problem is this: where do we go from here? We have a character who is invulnerable to everything and can literally punch through space battleships. She has no Kryptonite, no secret identity, no aversion to killing. What challenges can she possibly face? If you’ve seen the trailer for the next movie then you will know the challenges she will face. Everytime she or one of the other Marvels use their power, they swap. It looks like a blast. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/293 "2023-07-19T13:51:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Most people don’t have kryptonite issues. They have life issues. Captain Marvel will still have those, even though they may be on a different scale. And being responsible for multiple worlds only makes that harder. I agree, if that’s the kind of movie they’re going to make. However, they’ll probably make some kind of action movie instead, and action movies with omnipotent heroes are inherently boring. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/294 "2023-07-19T13:58:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Thats just how storytelling _works_. The X-men told a story about racism without specifically being about racism. Maybe, but it just didn’t work for me. It wasn’t a well-written movie, in my opinion. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If you’ve seen the trailer for the next movie then you will know the challenges she will face. Everytime she or one of the other Marvels use their power, they swap. It looks like a blast. I haven’t seen it, actually. Sounds like an interesting idea. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/295 "2023-07-19T13:59:22Z")
From what I’ve seen of _The Marvels_ they’re doing some wacky superhero farce where the three characters keep swapping places. As I said above, this will suit Iman Vellani well and the other two not very well. I suspect if they made a “life issues” film it would run into the “no character arc!” claims again, because apparently character can only be developed through punching shit. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/296 "2023-07-19T14:01:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe, but it just didn’t work for me. It wasn’t a well-written movie, in my opinion. …I mean: I’m not disputing your right to an opinion. I was just answering your questions. And here’s the trailer, open spoilers. > **[Marvel Studios’ The Marvels | Teaser Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuk77TjvfmE%2F)** > > Teaming up changes e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ everyone.Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel and Monica Rambeau return in Marvel Studios' #TheMarvels, only in theaters Novemb... ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/297 "2023-07-19T14:13:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > in terms of powers she’s basically Superman without the weaknesses That’s all that’s needed. _Captain Marvel_ is the Marvel movie I’ve rewatched it the most, because it’s a perfect fantasy fulfillment. It’s a story about breaking free of the system that holds one in bondage. Her enslavers had her convinced her own enslavement was benevolent, and had her enforcing their tyranny upon others. And then she set herself free using her own powers. That is a powerful and engaging story, at least to me. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/298 "2023-07-19T16:29:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > From what I’ve seen of _The Marvels_ they’re doing some wacky superhero farce where the three characters keep swapping places. As I said above, this will suit Iman Vellani well and the other two not very well. Unless it does. I thought Natalie Portman was a block of wood as Jane Foster and when I found she was going to be even more prominent than ever before in _Thor: Love and Thunder_, I dreaded it. Then I thought she was fantastic. They just wrote her so much better in that film and it gave Portman a chance to shine both comedically and dramatically. I even bought her as a plausible action star. Maybe the other actors will thrive in a different kind of role as well. It might surprise you. (Or it might suck, and Iman will have to carry the film, which she is good enough to do.) ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/299 "2023-07-19T19:21:09Z")
I think the sapping will get solved at the very least mid movie with some hand wavy Comic Book science because you can’t have them unable to use their powers the entire film. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/300 "2023-07-19T19:35:23Z")
…you can see them all using their powers in a fight with the big bad in the trailer. They get a hit in…then they swap. It looks really cool. I’ve got a lot of faith in Nia DaCosta. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116.md?page=16)