# The Marvelous Ms. Marvel **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, disney-hulu\ **Created:** [March 15, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116 "2022-03-15T15:05:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/161 "2022-06-28T02:16:52Z")
Total hijack but clarification on translation for me please. I was once told the that the context was ruach - spirit but also literally wind - and that we can only see what that wind has left in its wake. That interpretation supporting science and the study of how everything works as a means of approaching the divine. Is that a completely unreasonable interpretation in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/162 "2022-06-28T03:04:59Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Any references to body parts of G-d there are are, according to Jewish theology, metaphorical, speaking in a way that human beings would find familiar to get the point across. So he just _metaphorically_ walks around in the army camp not wanting to look at poop? > **[Deuteronomy 23:13 - Uncleanness in the Camp](https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/23-13.htm)** > > And you must have a digging tool in your equipment so that when you relieve yourself you can dig a hole and cover up your excrement. > **[Deuteronomy 23:14 - Uncleanness in the Camp](https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/23-14.htm)** > > For the LORD your God walks throughout your camp to protect you and deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, lest He see anything unclean among you and turn away from you. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/163 "2022-06-28T07:26:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Is that the Earth-616 Cap, or the MCU Cap? MCU wiki says that [Steve Rogers lived with his mother (his father had been killed in WWI) in the Hell’s Kitchen area of New York,](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Steve_Rogers#Early_Life) which was a heavily Irish neighborhood at the time. He and Bucky Barnes went to school in Brooklyn. Yeah, I think it’s pretty evident that the MCU intends Steve Rogers, the archetypical American Everyman (born July 4, 1918 for goodness’ sake), to be read as some variety of Christian. He’s supposed to be the apotheosis of the ordinary American, and the vast majority of Americans at the time identified as Christian. (And speaking as someone with a Jewish father from the Bronx who enlisted at age 18 to fight in WWII in real life, I think it would be very odd to present a Jewish Rogers as wanting to fight Nazis simply because he “doesn’t like bullies”. That’s very much in keeping with the Cap persona as the American-Everyman flattering self-image, a sort of secularized patriotic version of universalist Christian ideals, but it really comes across as “goywashing”—pardon my language—if Rogers is intended to be Jewish. Believe me, New York Jews in the early 1940s took the Nazis personally.) IOW, reading Rogers as Jewish is kind of like reading Hermione Granger in the Potterverse as Black. There’s nothing in canon that explicitly contradicts it outright, and if the creator endorsed that interpretation, I’d buy it. (Which is indeed what happened in the Cursed Child version of the Potterverse, where J.K. Rowling endorsed the casting of a Black actress to play Hermione; notwithstanding that she had previously endorsed the casting of Emma Watson, who is white, to play Hermione in the movies.) But it’s still very unlikely that the character was originally meant to be read that way. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/164 "2022-06-28T13:25:02Z")
Do you mean the context of those specific verses, Exodus 30:18-23? Or the use of physical metaphor for G-d’s actions in general? Certainly Judaism believes that scientific study can enhance one’s appreciation for G-d’s wisdom and one’s ability to perform G-d’s commandments. Not sure that that’s specifically found in the story of Moses on the mountain, as that seems to be very specifically directed at Moses and not as a general principle of divine knowledge for the general public, though I suppose it could be interpreted to “scale down” like that. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/165 "2022-06-28T14:40:05Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > So he just _metaphorically_ walks around in the army camp not wanting to look at poop? Absolutely. Remember, according to Jewish theology, G-d is everywhere at all times (even in the bathroom when you’re pooping! Heck, he CREATED the concept of poop!), so how could it be meant literally that he “walks around” (or “goes to”) a particular place? Where he “walks” or “goes” is an expression for us humans to understand that it is a place where his specific attention is focused. The Israelite army is expected to understand that G-d is the source of their strength and treat their army camp as a sanctified place, which includes keeping disgusting necessities in a separate, designated area. Think of how you would clean your house for a guest you want to impress. I’m sure you wouldn’t leave piles of poop in the living room, even though the person himself no doubt is capable of putting up with poop when and where necessary. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/166 "2022-06-28T18:31:12Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Do you mean the context of those specific verses, Exodus 30:18-23? Yes. Moses as representative of humanity, all of us limited. Even Moses cannot manage to be in front of the ruach of God and must instead be sheltered, experiencing that which is left in the wake, that being the closest we can get. Of course this was a Reform congregation and it fits our less literal take on our stories. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/167 "2022-06-28T18:53:46Z")
A big part of the conceit of Captain America is that he’s the exact Ubermensch Hitler always dreamed of, and all he wants to do is punch Hitler in the face. I like the idea of the US saying, “We have created the perfect human according to your very specific design criteria, and he thinks you suck.” Making him Jewish would undercut that a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/168 "2022-06-28T19:59:43Z")
Meh. He really is a rehash of Superman and most accept that his creators (Jewish) conceived of him as a Jewish metaphor, an immigrant with a Hebrewish name, adopted by America. The Cap? Child of immigrants, not genetically pure or born strong but became that way mainly due to the values he embodies … And that theme returns us to this show! The more recent wave of immigrants, dealing with prejudices but still embracing America and strong to no small degree because of values possessed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/169 "2022-06-28T20:16:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Meh. He really is a rehash of Superman and most accept that his creators (Jewish) conceived of him as a Jewish metaphor, an immigrant with a Hebrewish name, adopted by America. Captain America is a rehash of Superman? How so, exactly? Other than, “Is very moral even by super hero standards,” there’s not a lot of overlap there. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/170 "2022-06-28T20:29:33Z")
No Superman. > **[Superman's Jewish origins and the 'curse' that haunts the actors who play him](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/superman-jewish-origins-film-adaptations-curse-jerry-siegel-christopher-reeve-henry-cavill-a8344461.html?amp)** > > The Man of Tomorrow's surprising genesis and troubled cinematic legacy ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/171 "2022-06-28T20:33:32Z")
Thanks, I’m aware of Superman’s Jewish roots. You said someone was a “rehash of Superman.” Who were you referring to there? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/172 "2022-06-28T20:48:56Z")
Captain America is the rehash. In this case the child of immigrants rather than an immigrant himself. To some degree of course many of the next generation superheroes were Superman rehashes. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/173 "2022-06-28T20:55:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > most accept that his creators (Jewish) conceived of him as a Jewish metaphor, an immigrant with a Hebrewish name, adopted by America. The creators of Superman may have deliberately put some Jewish-American-immigrant symbolism into their character’s story, which of course is different from intending the character to be perceived as actually being Jewish. But AFAICT pretty much none of that symbolism persists in the “rehash” that is the character of Captain America. I see your point about a continuing theme in which the various MCU “image of America” superheroes all more or less subtly challenge the “all-American he-man” stereotype, and I like it. Clark Kent is an actual straight-up alien and immigrant with the weird name “Ka-El”. Steve Rogers is a “poor” from a notorious lawless slum and a stunted diseased weakling, who is mocked and bullied despite his immigrant parents’ self-sacrificing service to their adopted country: even if he’s not canonically established as of Irish descent, he sure recalls a lot of the stereotypes familiar from anti-Irish-immigrant prejudice. Sam Wilson is a Black descendant of enslaved African-Americans who definitely were not perceived as “real Americans” for a very long time. Carol Danvers is FEMALE, 'nuff said; and she also has some of that suspect “alien” baggage attached. And Ms. Marvel, as you note, is not only female but another variety of “Ethnic-American” descendant of immigrants, with a somewhat “suspect” minority religious identity into the bargain. In short, to become the true glorious all-American hero, you first have to surmount the perennial American xenophobia and bigotry telling you that you can’t really represent America because you’re one of THEM. Not particularly flattering, but fair point and well thought out. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/174 "2022-06-28T20:59:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Captain America is the rehash. Right, that’s what I was asking: how is Captain America a rehash of Superman? Because, outside of the parameters of “is a superhero,” there’s not a ton of similarities there. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/175 "2022-06-28T21:03:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes. Moses as representative of humanity, all of us limited. Even Moses cannot manage to be in front of the ruach of God and must instead be sheltered, experiencing that which is left in the wake, that being the closest we can get. I don’t think that’s quite what the Orthodox traditional take on that story is, though the idea can certainly be found in other traditional writings. The Midrash says that the “back” of G-d that is meant in that verse is the back of the head, where the knot of the head Tefillin is worn, and is a metaphorical reference to the fact that Moses would not be able to handle a direct vision “face” of how G-d interacts with the world (specifically in the area of reward and punishment in the physical world) but would have to settle for seeing the world in the “knotted” way that beings rooted in the physical, where we lack the ability to see things as they truly are. Not so much seeing the effects as they pass, but seeing events unfold in physical time and space and not having the ability to access the true causal relationship, in the underlying G-dly vision, of how entities affect one another. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/176 "2022-06-28T21:28:45Z")
If I’m not interrupting the Midrash exegesis too much by continuing to discuss MCU superheroes in the “Ms. Marvel” thread: 😄 Noting that the “Cap-ish” characters who at first glance might be thought to have a stereotypically better claim to the “all-American he-man” mantle are in various ways derailed or found wanting. The WASP (?) Georgia-bred patrician (?) Jonathan F. Walker, high school football captain, West Point honor grad, first triple Medal of Honor winner in the US military, etc. etc., actually becomes the second official Captain America. But he’s not using his status responsibly and when we leave him at the end of F&WS season 1, he is clearly on his way to, um, I forget, are we no-spoilers? Anyway, ISTM he is definitely cast for the part of the dark side of the exercise of American power. James Buchanan Barnes, middle-class WASP (?) boy-next-door of Scots (?) descent, accomplished athlete and scholar, attractive to girls, tall strong soldier, gracefully takes second place to his newly superpowered former protege Steve Rogers, but by a tragic accident is seized, half-destroyed and “turned” by the enemy forces. Something something Soviet something something collectivist something something brainwashing betrayal redemption. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/177 "2022-06-28T21:32:35Z")
I mistakenly clicked on the “Ms. Maisel” thread and boy was I confused for a minute 😁. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/178 "2022-06-28T22:40:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Right, that’s what I was asking: how is Captain America a rehash of Superman? Because, outside of the parameters of “is a superhero,” there’s not a ton of similarities there. They’re both big blue boy scouts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/179 "2022-06-28T22:52:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They’re both big blue boy scouts. I actually deleted, “I guess they both wear a lot of blue,” from my last post because I thought it was too snarky. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2022, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116/180 "2022-06-29T01:07:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > how is Captain America a rehash of Superman? Because, outside of the parameters of “is a superhero,” there’s not a ton of similarities there. Both created in the same several year period during WWII, not only costumed in red white and lots of blue, but both more defined by their uncompromising values than anything else. Yes immigrant or child of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-marvelous-ms-marvel/961116.md?page=10)