# The masculinity paradox **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335 "2018-10-02T20:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/181 "2018-10-13T19:13:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > One of the criticisms within the paper itself is that the forest (to continue the analogy) is largely monoculture. This is because you are still buying the propaganda that emasculation is the goal of moving to a more equitable society or that it is required, which is not true. The majority of the research seems to show that increased gender equality actually has the opposite effect, while still helping reduce the negative effects. [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ijop.12529](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ijop.12529) > [@](#): > > We speculate that as gender equality increases both men and women gravitate towards their traditional gender roles. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/182 "2018-10-13T21:35:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > This is because you are still buying the propaganda that emasculation is the goal of moving to a more equitable society or that it is required, Huh? > [@](#): > > The majority of the research seems to show that increased gender equality actually has the opposite effect, while still helping reduce the negative effects. And I have often mentioned my wish for equality; it’s just that people seem to take umbrage when I point out that equality needs to apply to men too. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/183 "2018-10-13T21:50:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Huh? > > And I have often mentioned my wish for equality; it’s just that people seem to take umbrage when I point out that equality needs to apply to men too. You have presented a thinly veiled desire for the domination of women and a conviction that the current system oppresses men in favor of women, or to maintain that system out of fear of change. The pro-feminist role acknowledges that men are also victims but you are demanding recognition that men are equally or more victimized. Historically and currently oppressed groups will need immediate and additional assistance to help break down the existing power structure and replace it with an equitable state where protection for all, despite sex is the state. A large portion of the reason we are _forced_ to frame this work in relation to gender is due to that power imbalance, and it is that power imbalance that needs to be addressed for all people. Actively opposing and attempting to dismantle services and supports put in place to protect women or by advocating for equal policies with negative outcomes protects the causative power imbalance. the rhetoric of hatred and victimization is not useful for moving to a gender neutral end. If it wasn’t for that existing toxic power structure gender in laws like domestic violence wouldn’t even need to reference women rights and could just be a generic “domestic violence” The BS that has been sold to you is blocking progress to exactly the endpoint you claim to desire. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/184 "2018-10-13T22:10:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > … I’ll just note that one of us is attacking the argument and one is attacking the poster… I’m sorry you feel attacked. That’s not my intention. But you’re _not_ attacking the argument. You’re nitpicking this paper. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/185 "2018-10-13T22:18:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I’m sorry you feel attacked. That’s not my intention. > > But you’re _not_ attacking the argument. You’re nitpicking this paper. Which is a perfect example of the now weaponized concept of “fragility”, which directly describes this very common response. Quartz, hopefully you can take the time to review and reflect here and realize that this is not a personal attack. In fact we are giving you far more credit than you are giving yourself. You are not being blamed because you are a man, you had no choice in that matter. But only you can break this unproductive cycle and realize that addressing a power imbalance that does favor men is not an attack on you because you are man. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/186 "2018-10-13T22:59:48Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I’m sorry you feel attacked. That’s not my intention. I must confess I find that difficult to believe: your words demonstrate otherwise. > [@](#): > > But you’re _not_ attacking the argument. You’re nitpicking this paper. No, I’m criticising it. I am pointing out where it is lacking. Hell, it even admits it’s lacking. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/187 "2018-10-13T23:04:20Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You have presented a thinly veiled desire for the domination of women Bullshit. Utter and complete bullshit. > [@](#): > > and a conviction that the current system oppresses men in favor of women, I have repeatedly demonstrated that in certain areas - notably accusations by women against men - that is in fact the current state of affairs. > [@](#): > > or to maintain that system out of fear of change. Again, bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/188 "2018-10-13T23:05:37Z")
This form of backlash is not new, and while you will dismiss this paper as it was written by a feminist, the same flawed arguments happened during the push for women’s suffrage. > **[mann.pdf](https://www.brown.uk.com/domesticviolence/mann.pdf)** > > 179.36 KB This is not a novel claim, nor is it a new response, nor is it any less flawed than in the past. The fact that you are calling out to rape myths yet again demonstrates this. > [@](#): > > notably accusations by women against men Yep…get a grip false accusations are not much different than other violent crimes, your fetish with being a victim is the only reason you can’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/189 "2018-10-13T23:08:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You have presented a thinly veiled desire for the domination of women and a conviction that the current system oppresses men in favor of women, or to maintain that system out of fear of change. How do you square that drivel with [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21262318&postcount=10) of mine? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/190 "2018-10-13T23:14:16Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > How do you square that drivel with [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21262318&postcount=10) of mine? Because of the priors, which include a plea about unequal rights and HPV vaccinations and referencing new advances. You may claim that you are for equality, but you are fighting against it by playing the tit-for-tat victim game. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/191 "2018-10-13T23:19:07Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The fact that you are calling out to rape myths yet again demonstrates this. As I have repeatedly demonstrated, they are not rape myths. Famous false accusations include the Duke case, the Hamiltons, and so on. And those are just the famous ones. You might find [this thread](https://www.quora.com/Have-you-or-any-men-you-know-ever-been-falsely-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-What-was-that-like-for-the-accused) on Quora of interest. It’s by ordinary people with real names no press melee. And just recently in the news a woman [has been jailed](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45839644) for a false claim of rape. > [@BBC](#): > > Mr Osborne said since he was accused in 2016 his life had “been a mess” in a victim statement. > > After a jury in the first trial against Skinner failed to reach a verdict, he agreed to give evidence against her again. > > “I was accused of rape by Sophie Skinner, that turned my life upside down,” Mr Osborne said. > > "I was locked up for 17 hours, I had to undergo an embarrassing medical. > > **“I still think of the worst case scenario - if there had been no CCTV in this case - Sophie Skinner would have been believed and I would not have been giving this statement, because I would be in jail.”** Men do suffer discrimination. I want equality; so should you. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/192 "2018-10-13T23:23:22Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As I have repeatedly demonstrated, they are not rape myths. Famous false accusations include the Duke case, the Hamiltons, and so on. > > And those are just the famous ones. You might find [this thread](https://www.quora.com/Have-you-or-any-men-you-know-ever-been-falsely-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-What-was-that-like-for-the-accused) on Quora of interest. It’s by ordinary people with real names no press melee. > > And just recently in the news a woman [has been jailed](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45839644) for a false claim of rape. > > Men do suffer discrimination. I want equality; so should you. Men do suffer _LESS_ discrimination, and no you don’t want equality, you want mutual bad results. You want all benefits handed out 1:1 and bitch about programs that are directed at solving the issue which cannot happen at a 1:1 manor. In other words you are being selfish and not considering the greater societal good. No cherry picking or special pleading will make rape myths true, the fact that I said false accusations are similar to the rates of other crimes is not disproved by the fact that there are cases. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/193 "2018-10-13T23:26:07Z")
I know it won’t change your acceptance of rape myths but… > [@](#): > > Only about 2% of all rape and related sex charges are determined to be false, the same percentage as for other felonies (FBI). So while they do happen, and they are very problematic when they do, people claim that allegations are false far more frequently than they are and far more frequently than for other crimes. Put another way, we are much more likely to disbelieve a woman if she says she was raped than if she says she was robbed, but for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/194 "2018-10-13T23:34:45Z")
And lets be fucking crystal clear, women who also believe the same BS you are pushing are the ones that often make false claims or at least move violent claims. [https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tim\_Grant2/publication/40498342\_Rape\_myth\_in\_true\_and\_false\_rape\_allegations/links/546f461d0cf24af340c07f77/Rape-myth-in-true-and-false-rape-allegations.pdf](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tim_Grant2/publication/40498342_Rape_myth_in_true_and_false_rape_allegations/links/546f461d0cf24af340c07f77/Rape-myth-in-true-and-false-rape-allegations.pdf) > [@](#): > > Overall the results identified that both generated false and withdrawn-as-false rape > allegations contained significantly more rape stereotypes than true allegations. Across > all conditions there was an inversion between inclusion of offender violence and > victim blaming. However the true condition also differed from the false conditions in > that as offender violence increased concepts implicitly excusing the offender on the > basis of their sex drive decreased. Indeed it was apparent through the content analysis > that true allegers spontaneously generated the offender’s motivation as power seeking > rather than achieving sexual gratification during highly violent episodes. Perhaps > counter-intuitively in both categories of false account denial or minimisation of the > rape did not co-occur with victim blaming ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/195 "2018-10-14T01:32:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I must confess I find that difficult to believe: your words demonstrate otherwise… Ok. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/196 "2018-10-14T07:43:05Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Men do suffer _LESS_ discrimination, That women have suffered discrimination is incontrovertible; that men currently do is also incontrovertible. > [@](#): > > and no you don’t want equality, you want mutual bad results. Wrong. Your insisting on this lie does not make it any less of a lie. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/197 "2018-10-14T20:34:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > That women have suffered discrimination is incontrovertible; that men currently do is also incontrovertible. > > Wrong. Your insisting on this lie does not make it any less of a lie. By focusing on the myth that men are often falsely blamed, you are part of the problem you claim you are trying to solve and the effect is the same. Men are more likely to be raped than be falsely accused of rape, yet you are still blaming the victims, even men. > **[FactCheck: Men are more likely to be raped than be falsely accused of rape](https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-men-are-more-likely-to-be-raped-than-be-falsely-accused-of-rape)** > > According to the best data available, a man is 230 times more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/198 "2018-10-14T22:57:53Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > By focusing on the myth that men are often falsely blamed, Why are you persisting in lying? I do not say that men are often falsely blamed. I have given evidence that it happens, not that it often happens. There is no good evidence as to the rate of false accusations - various studies have reported wildly different rates - but best estimates are indeed small (2% to 8%). But nowhere near zero. You do your position a disservice by not accepting facts. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/199 "2018-10-14T23:44:55Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Why are you persisting in lying? I do not say that men are often falsely blamed. I have given evidence that it happens, not that it often happens. There is no good evidence as to the rate of false accusations - various studies have reported wildly different rates - but best estimates are indeed small (2% to 8%). But nowhere near zero. You do your position a disservice by not accepting facts. My message has been clear, as is yours, you will error on letting tens of thousands of rapists go free over something here you admit is rare, because it wouldn’t be “fair” to those poor victimized men to have their day in court… > [@](#): > > “Yep…get a grip false accusations are not much different than other violent crimes, your fetish with being a victim is the only reason you can’t see that.” You are the one who is lying, and that is to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/200 "2018-10-15T04:24:19Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You are the one who is lying, and that is to yourself. And that is the most toxic kind of lies. “There is no person as blind as they who will not see, nor as deaf as they who will not hear.” To me the problem is on how do we prevent people from becoming willfully deaf, because once they’re there it’s so hard to make them hear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335.md?page=11)