# The masculinity paradox **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335 "2018-10-02T20:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/201 "2018-10-15T09:53:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > My message has been clear, as is yours, you will error on letting tens of thousands of rapists go free over something here you admit is rare, because it wouldn’t be “fair” to those poor victimized men to have their day in court… It is a fundamental principle in both the American and British justice systems that it is better to let 99 guilty go free than convict one innocent. I have no wish for mob rule; evidently you do. As Giles Corey said, “More weight”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/202 "2018-10-15T11:36:31Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It is a fundamental principle in both the American and British justice systems that it is better to let 99 guilty go free than convict one innocent. I have no wish for mob rule; evidently you do. > > As Giles Corey said, “More weight”. Man, you conservatives sure are hitting the “mob rule” hard these days, aintcha? Doesn’t have to be remotely relevant, you just call opinions you disagree with “mob rule” and hey presto, that’s your counterargument. Must make things easy–but I’m curious. Why have y’all abandoned “Posts like yours are why Trump got elected”? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/203 "2018-10-15T14:01:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Man, you conservatives… Except I’m not conservative; I’m not even American. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/204 "2018-10-15T14:19:16Z")
Missed the edit window: if you’d bothered to check, I’ve been banging on about the presumption of innocence on the Dope since at least [2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5572405&postcount=30). ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/205 "2018-10-15T14:33:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It is a fundamental principle in both the American and British justice systems that it is better to let 99 guilty go free than convict one innocent. I have no wish for mob rule; evidently you do. > > As Giles Corey said, “More weight”. Feel free to show me where in both the American and British justice systems that it is better to let 99 guilty go free by never having a crime even go through the legal system at all. By not treating rape victims as the criminals, we aren’t denying any accused rapist due process but we do stop denying victims access to du process. I am pretty sure that denying access to due process to one group to protect another isn’t in the core concepts. And nothing I even stated breaks down the presumption of innocence, but you are, because you are presuming that people who report rape are committing fraud and that they have no right to due process. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/206 "2018-10-15T14:33:42Z")
Presumption of innocence is a red herring. In general, our society fails to treat accusations of sexual assault and rape with the seriousness with which they ought to be treated, and fails to treat accusers with the kindness and decency with which they ought to be treated. Neither of those goals would conflict, in any way at all, with the concept of presumption of innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/207 "2018-10-15T16:20:08Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Except I’m not conservative; I’m not even American. You’re not American, but if you’re not conservative, you sure have been playing one on the SDMB for years now. It’s like some dude saying, “Jesus is our lord and savior and only through him can we find salvation, but don’t you call me a Christian!” > [@Quartz](#): > > Missed the edit window: if you’d bothered to check, I’ve been banging on about the presumption of innocence on the Dope since at least [2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5572405&postcount=30). Why would I bother to check on that, when I’m mocking you for the dumb use of “mob rule” instead? Have you been banging on about that since 2004 as well? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/208 "2018-10-15T16:33:44Z")
My comeback these day is that tyranny of the masses is better than tyranny of them asses. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/209 "2018-10-17T07:52:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Sorry, but I don’t see those as examples. Sure they are negative behaviours but homophobia is historically not limited to men. And misogyny is historically rather new. Homophobia is not limited to men, but it is very much a part of traditionally masculine culture (at least until very recently), and can be seen as part of it. Same with many aspects of misogyny. Is this really disputable? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/210 "2018-10-17T10:13:17Z")
I’ll add no trait is limited only to one group. That doesn’t mean that said trait can’t be characteristic of a group. Toxic masculinity can cause homophobia and misogyny, even if that’s not the only way it can happen. Same as a heart attack can cause death even though that’s not the only way that can happen. Or, if you want, Nazism includes racism, but it’s not the only thing that includes racism. Toxic masculinity, the idea that masculinity is defined by aggressiveness, competition, sexual conquest, etc, is obviously going to mean gay men and women are inferior. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/211 "2019-01-05T09:59:14Z")
This thread started out being quite interesting but ended up being just an interaction between old foes on clearly well stomped-out turf. This particular post I found depressing as fuck. Used to be this type of loser might find two other like minded types and hang out in a coffee shop. Now they have their own on-line community. Jesus wept. Not sure I should say “Thanks for posting”, but thanks for posting **you with the face** , I guess? Posted by Quint- Soy boy, not a Chad, fan of Femoids, former Male Virgin. PS- Sorry for the humour, but aren’t most men married for 15+ years “Incels”? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > For those who doubt that toxic masculinity is a thing, all you gotta do is read the ideas promulgated on incel message boards and you’ll see how belief in these notions can damage suggestible men. When I’m bored, against my better judgement I will go to one board in particular just to remind myself of the insanity out there. Here are common recurring themes that scream toxic masculinity to me: > > 1. “Soy boy”. A pejorative term that refers to men who, as evident by their open-mouthed smiles and other happy expressions, are deficient in masculinity and thus, deserving of mockery, pity, and contempt. Ironically, photo evidence of “soy boys” usually shows these men to be posing next to significant others and/or children, suggesting that they’re actually well-adjusted, successful family men. Incels seem to take this as additional evidence of their low T beta-ness, however. Apparently, real men (ie “Chads”) don’t smile exuberantly and they are too busy fucking hordes of women to take pictures with loved ones. > > 2. speaking of which…”Chad”. The archetypal male that incels both hate and adore (homoerotically, I might add). Chad gets to do everything that an untamed alpha male in the wild is entitled to do. He is hated by incels only because he can do what they can’t; his promiscuity, selfishness, and opportunism are viewed as unassailable facts of nature rather than character defects…as they are with women (i.e. “femoids”). > > 3. “Femoids”. It is the term incels give to women to dehumanize them, relegating them to a inferior “humanoid” status. Femoids collectively exhibit every vicious anti-woman stereotype out there. Irrational stupid manipulative gold-digging sluts, in a nutshell. They are not really people, so they can be raped without moral consequence. Their value is limited to their sexual and reproductive currency. Only virginal women are worth marrying; all others are trash. Male virginity on the other hand… > > 4. Male virginity is so bad that being one marks you as deeply flawed; it is incompatible with being a normal guy. If you make it past your teens and you haven’t scored, it’s time to worry. If you’re a virgin and anything except a classically attractive hunk with broad shoulders, thick wrists, and strong jaw, then it’s over, get a rope. > > Now, the skeptics are probably ready to hand wave all this. Incels are a fringe group of nobodies; why act as if their opinions have any relevance to what society instills and promotes? And to that I say incels are getting their ideas from somewhere; where, if not from the people around them as well as the media? Perhaps these ideas are extra sticky in psychologically unhealthy incel minds, but that doesnt mean they aren’t influencing other, less pathological people. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/212 "2019-01-05T11:32:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re not American, but if you’re not conservative, you sure have been playing one on the SDMB for years now. It’s like some dude saying, "Jesus is our lord and savior and only through him can we find salvation, but don’t you call me a Christian > (…) It is called “Trolling”. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/213 "2019-01-05T16:30:35Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > …PS- Sorry for the humour, but aren’t most men married for 15+ years “Incels”? Respectfully, this is precisely the sort of joke that helps promulgate toxic thinking about marriage, sex, and gender roles. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/214 "2019-01-05T17:36:07Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > PS- Sorry for the humour, but aren’t most men married for 15+ years “Incels”? > [@AHunter3 \*](#): > > If there is any widely shared image of a non-masculine man functioning in an actively heterosexual situation - a “sissy archetype” - then it’s Caspar Milquetoast, a mild-mannered ineffectual married man dominated by his wife. He does what she wants him to do. Presumably, she married him in order to use him as a source of money or social status. We still can’t visualize him flirting or participating in those brief hedonistic sexual encounters called “one-night stands”. If the conventional male’s sexual interests are constructed first around the fear of being gay and the need to prove otherwise, they are further shaped by a desire to avoid the fate of Caspar Milquetoast, who probably married her because that was the only way he was ever going to have any access to heterosexual erotic experiences. The applicable epithet is “pussy-whipped”. > > In patriarchal male-dominant society, the logical norm to which one might expect men to aspire would be the opposite of this: a man in an ongoing relationship with a woman in which she does what he wants her to do. And there are such images, head-of-the-family patriarch images, but they aren’t the central masculine motif at all. **In fact, all images of the male engaged in an ongoing relationship with a female are at least faintly tainted by the Caspar Milquetoast image, and the most masculine images are those in which male-female relationships are the most temporary and superficial** , tightly constrained to an impersonal and oppositional erotic contact. These are the forms of male-female contact that are traditionally assumed to be exploitative of women, as discussed previously. In short, it would appear from the imagery that all heterosexual possibilities must involve the domination of someone, either men or women, and that the possibilities for men’s domination lies mostly in short-lived superficial encounters. Since research seems to indicate that marriage is emotionally and psychologically good for men and bad for women, this is another assumption that should seem odd to us without further explanation. > > Some forms of exploitation do seem to work best during occasions of short-term contact, such as robbery, whereas others work better over a protracted period of time, such as slavery. Interestingly, the forms involving short-term contact are usually exploitations of people who are not truly weaker in the context where exploitation is taking place: if the thief does not escape quickly, the person whose property has been stolen may gain useful access to systems of law enforcement and the exploitation will not work. > > In the case of male domination in a close erotic context, the male is cloaked in shared images of male authority as well as far less ambivalence about the permissibility of his sexual behaviors, and furthermore is in a much better position to use physical force - these all contribute to male domination, and sometimes suffice to do so over long periods of time. > > But not always. Sexual sensations have emotional content in and of themselves, and have a tendency to create or strengthen empathic connections and shared identity. Intimacy, in other words, has a tendency to spread. Domination that depends on an ideology of Difference and Superiority, as male supremacy tends to, is incompatible with a sense of connectedness and shared identification. - Same Door, Different Closet: A Heterosexual Sissy’s Coming-out Party, 1992 emphasis added ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/215 "2019-01-07T08:45:33Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Respectfully, this is precisely the sort of joke that helps promulgate toxic thinking about marriage, sex, and gender roles. I disagree, but I suppose I probably shouldn’t have posted at all in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/216 "2019-01-07T15:09:55Z")
I’ve not read the responses but want to address one of the first sentences in OP. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > People of differing genders often act differently, not because of biology but because of social norms… There _are_ biologic differences; male and female brains are even wired differently. Let me ask a question of those most earnest about reducing the differences between the emotional behaviors of men and women: \*\*\*If there were a new wonder drug that arranged for men and women to have similar levels of testosterone and other hormones affecting personality, would you want to see that drug in widespread use?\*\*\*The line between instinctive and culturally-learned behavior may be somewhat fuzzy. Culture derives in part from our innate natures. Just in recent years there has been a backlash against abusive males; that’s a good thing. But OP suggests that there’s much further work to be done, while I wonder if we’re moving too fast in distancing human culture from its instinctual roots. As an extreme example, consider the “Incels.” When I was growing up, plenty of us young males were involuntary celibates! But we offered each other advice and kept trying. Heck, even I — as autistic and obnoxious as I was — managed to get laid occasionally. I certainly never met anyone who wanted a sex doll! Yet now, from what I read, young-people culture has switched dramatically. Casual sex, message-board dating or celibacy are the norms: What happened to normal courtship, or flirting in the grocery store check-out stand? In another thread I learn how wonderful self-checkout (which I’ve never seen :smack: ) is. Heaven forbid that we might have to exchange 'Good-afternoon’s with the check-out person? We need to check out quickly so we can hurry home and check our in-box for hits at ‘[MetrosexualSeeksFeminist.Com](http://MetrosexualSeeksFeminist.Com)’? This post has no conclusions paragraph. Consider it stream-of-consciousness mutterings on a topic that confuses me. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/217 "2019-01-07T15:12:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Consider it stream-of-consciousness mutterings on a topic that confuses me. Pretty sure that’s the only way to read it. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/218 "2019-01-07T20:18:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’ve not read the responses but want to address one of the first sentences in OP. > There _are_ biologic differences; male and female brains are even wired differently. Let me ask a question of those most earnest about reducing the differences between the emotional behaviors of men and women: > \*\*\*If there were a new wonder drug that arranged for men and women to have similar levels of testosterone and other hormones affecting personality, would you want to see that drug in widespread use?\*\*\*The line between instinctive and culturally-learned behavior may be somewhat fuzzy. Culture derives in part from our innate natures. > > Just in recent years there has been a backlash against abusive males; that’s a good thing. But OP suggests that there’s much further work to be done, while I wonder if we’re moving too fast in distancing human culture from its instinctual roots. > > As an extreme example, consider the “Incels.” When I was growing up, plenty of us young males were involuntary celibates! But we offered each other advice and kept trying. Heck, even I — as autistic and obnoxious as I was — managed to get laid occasionally. I certainly never met anyone who wanted a sex doll! > > Yet now, from what I read, young-people culture has switched dramatically. Casual sex, message-board dating or celibacy are the norms: What happened to normal courtship, or flirting in the grocery store check-out stand? In another thread I learn how wonderful self-checkout (which I’ve never seen :smack: ) is. Heaven forbid that we might have to exchange 'Good-afternoon’s with the check-out person? We need to check out quickly so we can hurry home and check our in-box for hits at ‘[MetrosexualSeeksFeminist.Com](http://MetrosexualSeeksFeminist.Com)’? > > This post has no conclusions paragraph. Consider it stream-of-consciousness mutterings on a topic that confuses me. So an individual with two X chromosomes who suffers from high testosterone levels due to hirsutism, polycystic ovary syndrome, and congenital adrenal hyperplasia is no longer a women? Why should I accept your claims that are counter to may of the current studies results? [https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/10/21/1509591112.short](https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/10/21/1509591112.short) > [@](#): > > Testosterone is an exemplar of biology studied as natural difference: men’s higher testosterone is typically seen as an innate “sex” difference. However, our experiment demonstrates that gender-related social factors also matter, even for biological measures. Gender socialization may affect testosterone by encouraging men but not women toward behaviors that increase testosterone. This shows that research on human sex biology needs to account for gender socialization and that nurture, as well as nature, is salient to hormone physiology. And how does this relate at all to my statement you quoted? > [@](#): > > People of differing genders **often** act differently, not because of biology but because of social norms… Outside of your baseless claim, can you provide any evidence that the _majority_ or even _plurality_ of behavior differences are biological? And then can you map those behavior differences to social norms where men have to feel “better” than women or are “weak” if they go to the doctor or talk about feelings? There are biologic differences, but you haven’t proven that male and female brains are even _wired differently_ primarily or exclusively due to biology. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/219 "2019-01-07T21:51:10Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So an individual with two X chromosomes who suffers from high testosterone levels due to hirsutism, polycystic ovary syndrome, and congenital adrenal hyperplasia is no longer a women? > [et cetera et cetera blah blah] > > Outside of your baseless claim, can you provide any evidence that the _majority_ or even _plurality_ of behavior differences are biological? Congratulations on arguing against statements and conclusions which I never made or implied. Was it fun? I wrote “There are biologic differences” and you segue to “can you provide any evidence that the _majority_ or even _plurality_ of behavior differences are biological?” Wow. But if you insist on debating that please define _plurality_. In my dictionary it means “two or more.” The first Google hit [Brain Differences Between Genders | Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders) lists more than two differences and doesn’t even mention the difference I thought was best-known. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/220 "2019-01-12T14:57:40Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > [Science tells us shifts of this nature can actually occur quite rapidly, assuming the right set of circumstances.](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/no-time-for-bullies-baboons-retool-their-culture.html) I finally got around to reading that article. _VERY_ interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335.md?page=12)