# The masculinity paradox **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335 "2018-10-02T20:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/221 "2019-01-14T16:20:26Z")
While it won’t get this thread back on track this story about the AMA’s recent release on the subject shows that it is just not this thread that goes off rails, but that most discussions about this topic end up in the “men’s rights” world because we can’t seem to have a real discussion about real problems. > **[Perspective | How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/how-traditional-masculinity-hurts-the-men-who-believe-in-it-most/2019/01/12/22d2518a-14fd-11e9-90a8-136fa44b80ba_story.html?utm_term=.80cf8d4da68f)** > > New American Psychological Association guidelines suggest that certain masculine behaviors can harm everyone — including men. > [@](#): > > The guidelines are saying some men are sick, in other words. But are they saying some men are sick, like, we need to gently care for them with aspirin and a thermometer? Or are they saying some men are sick, like, we need to put them in Hannibal Lecter masks and keep them away from everyone else? > > Levant was shocked this past week by how many people responded as if the guidelines were suggesting the latter — people who read the 30-page document as an indictment not of rigid, traditional masculinity but of all masculinity, and of men themselves. Hopefully one day us men as a group won’t be so fragile and will be able to talk about actual solutions. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/222 "2019-01-18T14:32:29Z")
Bumped for the new light cast upon the subject by the burst of toxic-“macho” poutrage over the recent Gillette advertisement. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/223 "2019-01-18T18:15:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Can anyone provide ideas on how we can move forward and stop social injustices and pain while we hope and wait for a cultural shift? > > I am not optimistic that framing it in a way that is closer to the truth, surrounding other purported but lesser valued ideals of _masculinity_ like honor and justice will be enough to overcome the fear that has been instilled in men by society. I am concerned that fear will block our ability to reach the critical point required to remove the institutional effects of racism and sexism. > > The fear of shame is pretty powerful, and I predict there will be plenty of examples of other men trying to shame me out of this line of thinking. > > But I am hopeful that others will produce ideas that may help. Whatever happened to the simple time-honored precept of “Don’t be a dick”? ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/224 "2019-01-18T18:32:50Z")
I feel like these ads are gimmicked for outrage so they can go viral. Like the interracial family/cheerios commercial. “Look, there are at least 20 assholes who will leave nasty comments. Media runs with it as ‘racists are livid over those commercial’, everyone Facebooks it and BAM, everyone is watching our commercial and feeling warm fuzzies for our company!” Sorry for being cynical. The message is fine but ultimately they’re out to sell shit, not reform malekind. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/225 "2019-01-23T15:51:41Z")
No mention of the new APA guidelines on masculinity? (I only read the last few days’ posts, but it’s only been a hot topic for about a week.) So for those who haven’t been following the kerfuffle: the APA has released a report making recommendations for clinical psychologists that calls masculinity “socially constructed” over and over, but never mentions genetics or testosterone. :smack: Steven Pinker rightly calls this report “ludicrous”. This is a good time to point out that although Pinker’s book _The Blank Slate_ is now more than a decade old, this APA report illustrates that it is as timely as ever. That book is a must-read to understand why the ”blank slate” idea—that differences between men and women, and between people more broadly, come down to all nurture and no nature—is so wrongheaded and fundamentally paradoxical. > ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/226 "2019-01-24T18:34:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No mention of the new APA guidelines on masculinity? (I only read the last few days’ posts, but it’s only been a hot topic for about a week.) > > So for those who haven’t been following the kerfuffle: the APA has released a report making recommendations for clinical psychologists that calls masculinity “socially constructed” over and over, but never mentions genetics or testosterone. :smack: > > Steven Pinker rightly calls this report “ludicrous”. This is a good time to point out that although Pinker’s book _The Blank Slate_ is now more than a decade old, this APA report illustrates that it is as timely as ever. That book is a must-read to understand why the ”blank slate” idea—that differences between men and women, and between people more broadly, come down to all nurture and no nature—is so wrongheaded and fundamentally paradoxical. > > [https://twitter.com/sapinker/status/1085922404314968064?s=20](https://twitter.com/sapinker/status/1085922404314968064?s=20) A real question here, for both gender and race you like to assign differences to biology and not nurturer. And you always ignore the fact that complex factors are always involved and that all of these behaviors are on a spectrum and not binary. And to justify this you find fringe scientists who make these absolute false dichotomies while dismissing more accepted science that tries to explain the subtleties. I get that you are a _black and white_ type of person, but what I want to know is how you mentally justify in your mind that anything you believe is in anyway scientific? You do grasp the concept that science is a tool to get past our human thought biases? Because a thread meant to help men suffer less under their societal roles has no dependency on your _The Blank Slate_ claim. Or do you really think there is a fundamental, biological reason that men won’t do things like say, go to the doctor when they are sick because they think it makes them look weak? I get that as a race realist, you think biology means everything but do you also believe you have zero free will? Do you make zero choices in your life? Is there nothing you can’t improve in your life? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/227 "2019-01-24T20:21:43Z")
Of course I don’t believe in free will. You do?? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/228 "2019-01-27T19:47:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Man, you conservatives sure are hitting the “mob rule” hard these days, aintcha? Doesn’t have to be remotely relevant, you just call opinions you disagree with “mob rule” and hey presto, that’s your counterargument. > > Must make things easy–but I’m curious. Why have y’all abandoned “Posts like yours are why Trump got elected”? They know ALL about mob rule “Lock her up!” Remember that??? Any of them crying about “mob rule” now, can fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/229 "2019-01-28T03:14:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So for those who haven’t been following the kerfuffle: the APA has released a report making recommendations for clinical psychologists that calls masculinity “socially constructed” over and over, but never mentions genetics or testosterone. 😕 Why do you see this as a problem? Maybe you are confusing “masculinity”, i.e., a particular society’s gender norms for men, with “maleness”, i.e., being male? Obviously, the fact that, say, wearing long curled hair and high heels and frilly lace cuffs was considered masculine in 17th-century Europe but not in 20th-century America has nothing to do with genetics or testosterone. The Three Musketeers presumably had just as much in the way of Y chromosomes and testosterone as the 1985 Chicago Bears. How are you going to explain such differences if you deny or dismiss the concept of masculinity as a social construct? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > the ”blank slate” idea—that differences between men and women, and between people more broadly, come down to all nurture and no nature—is so wrongheaded and fundamentally paradoxical. I definitely don’t get the impression that the [APA guidelines](https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guidelines.pdf) (which btw seem to have come out last August, although you and Pinker apparently just noticed them recently) are in any way supporting a “blank slate” hypothesis or claiming that there are no biological differences between men and women. Instead, they are focusing specifically on the \*\*non-\*\*biological aspects of male identity. As the report states clearly, > [@](#): > > Although gender and sex can be seen as overlapping and fluid categories with multiple meanings […], this document uses the term gender to refer primarily to the social experiences, expectations, and consequences associated with being a boy or man. Pinker misunderstanding this as somehow “embracing the Blank Slate” is just Pinker being a melodramatic grandstanding arse, as usual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335.md?page=11)