# The masculinity paradox **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335 "2018-10-02T20:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/21 "2018-10-03T04:55:33Z")
I think a lot of the concepts of the OP are already out of date. I was watching jordan peterson on the joe rogan show, and they both agreed that, in terms of the dating scene, the guys who get girls are the most “alpha”. And that what young men need to do is be more manly to be more attractive. The idea that masculinity is attractive is of course not wrong, but it is still some of the worst advice you could possibly give in this context, because trying hard to _look_ manly is how a lot of men end up looking pathetic or obnoxious. And in terms of dating, most men would do far better working on their conversation / communication skills. My point is just that many men are prisoners to the idea that they must be manly…maybe they got this from TV, or guys like JP? In practice, you can just throw all that stuff out and your life will likely be better for it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/22 "2018-10-03T05:30:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Are they? Or are they used when a boy is hurt back in 1950? Well, pre-adolescent and adolescent boys today report those attitudes still alive and well, according to [a recent survey](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/upshot/gender-stereotypes-survey-girls-boys.html): > [@](#): > > Boys still feel they have to be strong, athletic and stoic. […] > > Traditional ideas about boys still run strong in the United States, found the new survey […] > > Boys said strength and toughness were the male character traits most valued by society. Three-quarters said they felt pressure to be physically strong, and a majority felt pressure to play sports. > > Asked what society expects boys to do when they feel angry, the largest shares said they were supposed to be aggressive or be quiet and suck it up. When they felt sad or scared, they felt pressure to hide those feelings or to be tough and strong instead. Girls were more able to express themselves by crying, screaming or talking about their feelings, respondents said. > > Half of boys said they’d heard men in their family make sexual jokes or comments about women; those boys were more likely to feel pressure to be tough and play along with sexism. An even bigger share, 82 percent, said they had heard someone criticize a boy for “acting like a girl.” I’m actually kind of baffled that anybody would imagine that these attitudes aren’t still very influential. I mean, you must be spending zero time in the vicinity of teen boys if you can believe that, say, being taunted for “acting like a girl” is merely an out-of-date throwback to 1950. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/23 "2018-10-03T08:01:56Z")
And it’s not something they get out of thin air: the first really big fight between The Eldest Nephew and 1.SiL (aka The Control Freak) was on account of “boys can’t wear Dora backpacks!” The look he gave her when they got to kindergarten on the first day and about half the boys wore Dora packs would have melted steel, but she wasn’t the only parent whose son didn’t wear a Dora item or their daughter a Bob the Builder one because of the parent’s prejudices. 3yo is too early to have ingrained sexist notions, but sadly not too early to be subject to them or to start learning them. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/24 "2018-10-03T09:29:05Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But in general _anger or aggression_ are the only socially acceptable emotions for a man… > > It is socially unacceptable for men to show any emotion except for aggression Aren’t you forgetting determination, stoicism, love, happiness, joy, and so on? ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/25 "2018-10-03T12:35:52Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Aren’t you forgetting determination, stoicism, love, happiness, joy, and so on? It does seem a little wrong to me to say that anger and aggression are the only acceptable emotions for a man to express socially. What seems more correct is going at it from the other direction: there are certain emotional ranges that are not permissible for a man to express (on pain of ridicule or at best being considered strange). This sort of ties in with stoicism. I can say that I’m sad not to see my family for a long time, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable expressing spending time talking about it or giving details to folks I don’t know well. I can be happy to see a friend, but I can’t yelp with joy and run up and grab him in a hug. I can be somber and deeply apologetic if I run over someone’s dog but I can’t cry with grief or otherwise show exactly how distraught I am. Anger and aggression are to a large degree tolerated in men, and even expected in some scenarios, but in many situations they would be totally unexpected and undesired modes of behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/26 "2018-10-03T12:45:22Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I would totally mock you if you screamed just because you saw a spider. > > ETA: [Boo!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_spider#/media/File:Hogna_lenta_18.jpg) I would curse you and everything you stand for, but the spider has to be live, and inches away from jumping on my face and killing me via some secret spider powers. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/27 "2018-10-03T12:49:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m actually kind of baffled that anybody would imagine that these attitudes aren’t still very influential. I mean, you must be spending zero time in the vicinity of teen boys if you can believe that, say, being taunted for “acting like a girl” is merely an out-of-date throwback to 1950. Well, admittedly, I don’t spend a lot of time in the vicinity of teen boys. Why would I? Also, I thought this topic was about adult men. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/28 "2018-10-03T13:07:52Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I would totally mock you if you screamed just because you saw a spider. > > ETA: [Boo!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_spider#/media/File:Hogna_lenta_18.jpg) Well shows how much you know, you ignorant little turnip. I do not, in fact, “yelp like a girl” when startled by a spider. I let out the ancient battlecry of my people, the mighty war-whoop of old transmitted from grandfather to grandson since the dawn of our age, the ancient tribal curse that is only to be uttered when honor has been sullied beyond reparation, weapons must be drawn and cannot be put away before someone, somewhere, has gone _splat_. It just so happens that my people are, by and large, pre-teen mice. But we hella fierce, girlfren’. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/29 "2018-10-03T14:34:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But let’s not forget, of course, that the primary responsbility here is still the responsibility of men not to _be_ douchebags in the first place. For the zillionth time, we as a society need to stop taking misbehavior by men for granted as some kind of natural phenomenon that it’s primarily women’s job to fix, by selecting or training men more carefully. This is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Are men inherently douchebags, or are they trained to be douchebags by the people (including women) around them? When a boy is learning how to be a man, he has to figure out the right way to act. He is told that women want to be respected, they enjoy the company of compassionate, interesting men with a good sense of humor. If he goes to the junior prom and sees the handsy dumbass jocks hanging out with the girls and the compassionate, interesting and funny boys are hanging out with other compassionate, interesting and funny boys, he’s bound to think that what he was told might not be accurate. It’s not that it’s a woman’s job to fix the men, but they have to be on board with the message, and provide more than lip service to it. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/30 "2018-10-03T14:55:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It is indeed very true that women can help discourage behaviors associated with toxic masculinity in men by rejecting potential partners who exhibit such behaviors. But the claim that this strategy would operate via “selected” genetic factors rather than by plain old cultural shifting is a totally unsupported _argumentum ab ano_. I actually agree with this, and it’s why I put “good genes” in quotes in my post. I agree the factors that often sexually select for toxic masculinity in fertile women could well be social as well as genetic, probably some combination of both. > [@Kimstu](#): > > But let’s not forget, of course, that the primary responsbility here is still the responsibility of men not to _be_ douchebags in the first place. This was my thought for a long time, and I’ve lived my life in accordance, but as I get older and my blood cools I tend to take a longer view and ask myself, “Is it really?” Because the biological imperative is to reproduce, not to be a good guy. And being a douchebag pretty much unquestionably leads to more opportunities to reproduce. The “Nice Guys” are not wrong about that. Ultimately I taught my daughters not to date douchebags, and my sons not to be douchebags, because I believe the world is changing, or at least should change, but it’s kind of like the question of if it’s better to put your kids in a failing public school and help save it, at the likely cost of their own educational opportunities, or put them in a private school and give your own kids the best chance they have of developing their own potential. > [@Nava](#): > > And it’s not something they get out of thin air: the first really big fight between The Eldest Nephew and 1.SiL (aka The Control Freak) was on account of “boys can’t wear Dora backpacks!” > > The look he gave her when they got to kindergarten on the first day and about half the boys wore Dora packs would have melted steel, but she wasn’t the only parent whose son didn’t wear a Dora item or their daughter a Bob the Builder one because of the parent’s prejudices. 3yo is too early to have ingrained sexist notions, but sadly not too early to be subject to them or to start learning them. I was back to school shopping in my very diverse neighborhood and there was a hispanic family there with a grade school(maybe 3rd/4th grade) age boy who wanted a certain color of backpack(light green, purple, something like that, I don’t remember exactly) and the woman said “that’s a girl’s color” to the boy while the man was off in another aisle getting something else. So when he came back and said “why don’t you have a backpack yet?” the little boy said “I want that one but mama won’t let me have it.” He said “Why can’t he have that one?” She repeated, “That’s a girls color.” He just kind of sighed and said “Boys can have that color.” Then he picked up the backpack his son wanted and put it in the basket. This really speaks to the larger question of who is the true gatekeeper of the definition of masculinity. The boys can make whatever choices they want, but ultimately women choose what makes a man successful, in the only way that really matters. I myself have been single for the past couple years and have dated very little because pretty much every profile talks about wanting “a real man who is an alpha” or somesuch. So my money is where my mouth is on this. I could adopt a persona which would make me more successful in the dating world, but I’m unwilling to and limiting myself to fishing in the end of the pond where I’m hoping to find women who want an equal instead of an alpha. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/31 "2018-10-03T15:14:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > As with all generalizations and stereotypes, they hardly if ever hold for individual cases. > > “Suck It Up” > “Don’t Act Like A Girl” > “Be A Man” > “Boys Don’t Cry” I think there was a time when this was predominantly the case, but a lot of things have changed since the fifties. Being in education since college, I have seen first hand how children are being raised, and I’m just not seeing that. It really doesn’t apply anymore, although I’m sure there are still individual cases that you could find where that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/32 "2018-10-03T15:14:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > All those results indicate (bearing in mind that the menstrual-cycle part is merely self-reported and that the identification of ovulation is especially imprecise) is that many women have different types of sexual feelings at different points in their menstrual cycles, and that some of those feelings lead them more strongly to prefer certain traits in men as “sexy”. Wasn’t this one of the studies that failed the reproducibility test? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/33 "2018-10-03T15:38:02Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Also, I thought this topic was about adult men. Hey, you’re the one who voluntarily joined in on the discussion of boys and gender expectations to challenge (wrongly, as it turned out) what **rat avatar** was saying about them: > [@Slash1972](#): > > > [@rat avatar](#): > > > > All are used when a boy is hurt or shows other emotions in childhood. […] > > Are they? Or are they used when a boy is hurt back in 1950? And the answer is, according to this recent survey: Yes, all these “masculinity” stereotypes (such as “Suck It Up”, “Don’t Act Like A Girl”, “Be A Man”, “Boys Don’t Cry”) **are** still being used to pressure boys of today into conforming to traditional gender roles. (And why you would even think that a thread titled “The masculinity paradox” would focus specifically on adult men to the exclusion of boys, **especially when you’ve already seen and participated in exchanges about boys and masculinity stereotypes within this very thread** , defies coherent explanation.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/34 "2018-10-03T16:01:32Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I think there was a time when this was predominantly the case, but a lot of things have changed since the fifties. Being in education since college, I have seen first hand how children are being raised, and I’m just not seeing that. It really doesn’t apply anymore, although I’m sure there are still individual cases that you could find where that is the case. While I’m glad that you personally are seeing less of these stereotypes, it doesn’t appear that they have yet shrunk down to the level of individual aberration. See the linked survey article back in post #22. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > When a boy is learning how to be a man, he has to figure out the right way to act. He is told that women want to be respected, they enjoy the company of compassionate, interesting men with a good sense of humor. ISTM that this right here is the root of the problem: making “the right way to act” for boys contingent on arbitrary statements about what “women want”. **We need to stop teaching boys that girls/women are essentially vending machines for emotional/sexual gratification and social validation, and that “the right way to act” is about figuring out the right behavioral “coin” to make the vending machine work.** When a boy gets told that a certain type of behavior is the right coin to work the vending machine, and it doesn’t produce for him the emotional/sexual gratification and social validation that he was trying to buy with it, he naturally assumes that he was lied to about the right coin or that the vending machine is malfunctioning. This is intrinsically dehumanizing to women and girls, and not that great for boys and men either. We should instead be teaching boys and girls alike that “the right way to act” is based on fundamental ethical principles rather than on any alleged efficacy in “making” other human beings give you certain things you want. That nobody is automatically entitled to get love or sex or social prestige from any other human being, and that other human beings are not vending machines or puzzles to solve by figuring out behavioral strategies. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If he goes to the junior prom and sees the handsy dumbass jocks hanging out with the girls and the compassionate, interesting and funny boys are hanging out with other compassionate, interesting and funny boys, he’s bound to think that what he was told might not be accurate. :dubious: And when he sees the compassionate, interesting and funny girls who don’t happen to be particularly pretty or popular being ignored by jocks and “compassionate” boys alike? What does he think about that? Oh wait, I forgot: Girls not getting attention from the opposite sex because of shallow superficial prejudices is completely normal and unremarkable. Boys not getting attention from the opposite sex because of shallow superficial prejudices is a gross injustice and outrage that women as a group need to be held responsible for. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/35 "2018-10-03T16:17:31Z")
I’m not sure where some of y’all live, but where I work in rural Oregon the masculinity stereotypes and tropes are quite alive and well. I have a client who did not tell anyone about his anxiety-caused heart palpitations because he was afraid of seeming weak. I have a client who didn’t tell anyone about his auditory psychosis for 44 years, same reason. I have young men, 16-30, who feel paralyzed and crippled because they are neuroatypical, or emotionally sensitive, or not macho enough, or just weird. These guys are \*not \*the exceptions, they are the norm. I have worked with vets for several years now, and you can imagine some of what they might have internalized, but I’m not even talking about them. The good ol’ boys in my office are just trying hard to function in a world that \*still \*tells them that our acceptable outlets for emotion are anger and physical exertion and not much else. . ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/36 "2018-10-03T17:40:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > (And why you would even think that a thread titled “The masculinity paradox” would focus specifically on adult men to the exclusion of boys, **especially when you’ve already seen and participated in exchanges about boys and masculinity stereotypes within this very thread** , defies coherent explanation.) To clarify; I am not trying to exclude boys, I am trying to say that simply teaching your own kids does not solve this problem. Even if _your child_ does not engage in the behavior they still benefit from this power imbalance and lets be honest, their peers will have more influence on them. While people like to dismiss it as the exception, think of POTUS’s ‘Think Of Your Son’ quote from yesterday. Yes you should try to raise good children, but we need to take other step to help break down this current culture problem and really I don’t find it acceptable to just wait 20-30 years to do so even if that works perfectly. That is several decades of women being raped and men going to an early grave. If as a society we can change from Boy George being to pretending to be straight to where we are today this is doable. For my family that took Matthew Shepard being drug to death for those conversations to happen. As Trump rose to power due to primarily leveraging these irrational fears I would ask why are you so positive that we shouldn’t look at what we can do to directly address this problem vs. simply handing the problem off to your children. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/37 "2018-10-03T17:46:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > We need to stop teaching boys that girls/women are essentially vending machines for emotional/sexual gratification and social validation, and that “the right way to act” is about figuring out the right behavioral “coin” to make the vending machine work. > … > > This is intrinsically dehumanizing to women and girls, and not that great for boys and men either. We should instead be teaching boys and girls alike that “the right way to act” is based on fundamental ethical principles rather than on any alleged efficacy in “making” other human beings give you certain things you want. I love you and would be happy to petsit for you if we didn’t live so far away. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/38 "2018-10-03T17:54:31Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Aren’t you forgetting determination, stoicism, love, happiness, joy, and so on? I should have specified in stressful situations and negative emotions. But note how the one “negative” example you provided above was _stoicism_. That is just another term for the “man up” concept in lots of cases. [ul] [li]shutting down when his partner expresses anger or frustration[/li][li]dealing with something sad through sex, drugs etc…[/li][li]lashing out when criticized or confronted and an inability to deal with guilt, shame or embarrassment.[/li][li]not communicating to their partner clearly and calmly when things bother him.[/li][/ul] That requirement for external _stoicism_ is often a facade. Often times it just blocks simple honest communication that would solve some problems and wouldn’t require any emotional response that is typically labeled as “feminine”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/39 "2018-10-03T17:55:36Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I love you and would be happy to petsit for you if we didn’t live so far away. And if I had a pet! 🙂 But thank you very much anyway and back atcha. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335/40 "2018-10-03T18:18:37Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think a lot of the concepts of the OP are already out of date. > > I was watching jordan peterson on the joe rogan show, and they both agreed that, in terms of the dating scene, the guys who get girls are the most “alpha”. And that what young men need to do is be more manly to be more attractive. > The idea that masculinity is attractive is of course not wrong, but it is still some of the worst advice you could possibly give in this context, because trying hard to _look_ manly is how a lot of men end up looking pathetic or obnoxious. And in terms of dating, most men would do far better working on their conversation / communication skills. > > My point is just that many men are prisoners to the idea that they must be manly…maybe they got this from TV, or guys like JP? In practice, you can just throw all that stuff out and your life will likely be better for it. Wait why are my concepts out of date? Your post just described an example of one of them. The “alpha male” myth is a perfect illustration of this as the dominance theory it references is based off debunked theories. [Dr. Mech himself has retracted his earlier findings.](https://davemech.org/wolf-news-and-information/) > [@](#): > > “The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book “The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species,” written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book’s info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then [sic] in all of previous history. > > One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. “Alpha” implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that’s all we call them today, the “breeding male,” “breeding female,” or “male parent,” “female parent,” or the “adult male” or “adult female.” In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the “dominant breeder” can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a “subordinate breeder.” Men absolutely can show value through acts of leadership or other means without resorting to actions that are at the expense of others, but as this example demonstrates they are often not given that message. IMHO we don’t need to discard the concept of masculinity but rather switch to dismissing and devaluing actions which are purely at the expense of others and make it clear they are not demonstrating masculinity but immaturity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-masculinity-paradox/822335.md?page=3)