The Matter of England...why "matter"?

Factual Questions
1

I am not a literary scholar. I am not generally a reader of medieval English romances. But I have come across the phrase “the Matter of England” in reference to said non-Arthurian English romances several times. I know what the Matter of England is, but no one seems to explain why they’re “the Matter” of England.

Did the word “matter” mean something other than what it’s usually used to mean now?

2

Matter means something that is written down or set in print.

edit - The word is still used in this sense. Think of reading matter.

3

No, that specific sense is obsolete, as the OED entry for it notes.

4

Well, shit. I am pretty sure I have heard (and used) matter to mean a tale. I know I have used heard it used to refer to reading material, but who am I to argue with the OED.

5

Can something be marked obsolete by the OED and still be in circulation? I’m pretty sure I’ve come across it in modern use that way (albeit not very often).

6

???
I’m confused. Several different countries have characteristic legends, which are said to be the “Matter” of that coubtry. The Matter of France was Charlemagne. I suspect The Matter of Spain was El Cid. My understanding was that The Matter of Britain WAS Arthurian legend, not non-Arthurian. I’ve read it referred to that way in several places.

See here for instance:

7

That’s what I had thought, too, but when I was Googling to see if I could find the answer prior to asking here, several sites defined it as the non-Arthurian romances specifically.

I wonder if the Matter of Britain (which is the title of your wikipedia cite) is somehow different from the Matter of England, and I’m a victim of the almost-but-not-quite-synonym?

8

I’m sure it’s still used by medieaval scholars in reference to the Arthurian legends, etc, but I personally have never seen it used outside of that context. I don’t know what the criterion for obsolescence is in the OED, but certainly most people would not understand the word today used in this sense. (Witness the puzzlement expressed in the OP).

9

I meant that I’ve seen it in modern contexts as defined in the dictionary - meaning ‘the story of…’, but not necessarily relating to England. I can’t recall any specific examples, and it may have been a purposeful archaism when I did see it - in book titles and the like.

10

So, saying

“What’s the matter with you”

is basically saying - What’s your story?

11

I would say that falls under one of the other senses of the word - probably the one where matter means ‘state of affairs’ or ‘situation’

12

The Matter of Britain are the Arthurian tales. The Matter of England are (at least some of) the non-Arthurian English tales. Also, the word “matter” is obsolete in the sense “words printed on paper.” That means you can’t presently say something like “The pages of this book are matter.” The phrase “reading matter” is not obsolete. Sometimes a word will continue to be used as part of a phrase (in its old sense) although it becomes obsolete by itself (in its old sense).

13

I’m interested in English legends and mythology, including Arthur and Robin Hood,
Nevertheless, having lived 55 years in England, I have never heard the phtrase ‘The Matter of England.’

14

So I did come up against my own mistake in googling “matter of England” instead of “matter of Britain”. :smack:

Thanks, Wendell!

15

And the difference between the Matter of England and the Matter of Britain seems pretty obvious to me. AIUI, Arthur (had he been real, according to the older stories) fought FOR the Britons (that is to say, the Welsh) AGAINST the Anglos, Saxons, etc, which, to me, makes his status as a national hero of England amusing.

But then I guess Crazy Horse & Sitting Bull are pretty well-regarded here in America, despite the fact that we were their enemy, so…

16

It’s not obsolete at all, in my opinion, at least in Canadian legal vocabulary.

It’s very common to see the phrase “In the matter of…” in the style of cause of legal briefs and decided cases: “In the matter of the Estate of John Doe”; “In the matter of an appeal from conviction…”; “In the matter of a reference under s. 53 of the Supreme Court Act”; and so on.

Here’s just a few links to decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada using the phrase in this sense:

http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1992/1992rcs1-875/1992rcs1-875.html

http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2000/2000scc32/2000scc32.html

http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1989/1989rcs1-1572/1989rcs1-1572.html

http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1998/1998rcs2-443/1998rcs2-443.html

In all of these cases, the phrase is used to indicate the subject matter of the proceedings, which seems to fit nicely into the OED definition. Note that all of these cases were decided within the last 20 years.

17

England matters.

So there

18

Northern Piper,

The example you give is not an example of the term “matter” continuing to be used in the sense “something that is printed.” As I said in my last post, a word can continue to be used in an old sense within a set phrase even though it is obsolete in its old sense in general. That’s what’s happened in the example you give. People don’t recognize the sense of “matter” as “something that is printed” in general. They do recognize the sense of “in the matter of” as meaning “as regards to the legal case of” (and not just in Canada, since it’s standard in the U.S. too).