# The medeival Christian church - champion of science? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385 "2003-08-24T20:48:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/21 "2003-09-03T10:16:32Z")
Crazy days them medeival times. Are we agreed then that the answer to the op is “yes, and no with a relaxed definition of yes and no.”? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/22 "2003-09-03T12:05:55Z")
The Church was the only remaining organization capable of preserving and extending scholarship. The manner in which it did so, though, was quite different from modern scholarship, and heavily influenced by its own ideology… which by our standards is a corruption of the process. So the answer is yes and no. It was an enemy of modern scientific thought, but a friend to existing knowledge and to limited inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/23 "2003-09-03T12:22:27Z")
Was the medeival Christian church Relatively speaking, yes. But then my dog doesn’t have bad breath, relatively speaking. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/24 "2003-09-03T16:35:03Z")
> [@](#): > > The manner in which it did so, though, was quite different from modern scholarship, and heavily influenced by its own ideology… which by our standards is a corruption of the process. But “modern scholarhip” and our standards did not exist at the time. “Modern scientific thought” hadn’t been invented yet (and is still an ideal that isn’t always lived up to). You can’t just judge them by rules that wouldn’t be developed for hundreds of years. The medieval churches were, in many ways, the foundations for what we have now. They preserved books and records and valued literacy when the rest of the continent did not. Monasteries eventually led to universities and scientific academies. ---
**Author:** ![Dostromin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@Dostromin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostromin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/25 "2003-09-04T04:32:18Z")
> [@](#): > > They preserved books and records and valued literacy when the rest of the continent did not. Probably becasue the rest of the continent did not have the money to own volumes of literature. While the church was the foundation for science of the time, it was not a good foundation. Science had to be in agreement with the church. Like a child gifted in the arts, yet chastised by parents who do not find the works aesthetically pleasing. While the current situation does nurture the child’s talent to a degree, it isn’t the best environment for which the child could hone his/her skill. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/26 "2003-09-04T12:47:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by genie \* > \*\*But “modern scholarhip” and our standards did not exist at the time. “Modern scientific thought” hadn’t been invented yet (and is still an ideal that isn’t always lived up to). You can’t just judge them by rules that wouldn’t be developed for hundreds of years. \*\* Why not? I judge _this_ society by rules that won’t be widely developed and accepted for hundreds of years. > [@](#): > > \*\*The medieval churches were, in many ways, the foundations for what we have now. They preserved books and records and valued literacy when the rest of the continent did not. Monasteries eventually led to universities and scientific academies. \*\* Yes… so? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/27 "2003-09-04T23:02:43Z")
> [@](#): > > While I believe that the christian church of the medeival era worked to hinder science, I also believe that it was the source of scientific advancement in Europe. > If that makes any sense. It does. The church was not the monolithic, unified organism that most moderns believe that it must have been. It was just as fractious as any other international and multi-ethnic organization. Elements assisted, elements hindered. > [@](#): > > The manner in which it did so, though, was quite different from modern scholarship, and heavily influenced by its own ideology… which by our standards is a corruption of the process. If you are saying that modern science and scholarship are not also heavily influenced by ideology, then I definitely have some good books to suggest to you. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/28 "2003-09-04T23:30:33Z")
[Quickie outline.](http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blchron_xian_medieval2.htm) Even a generic outline should give any reasonable person pause. From the German persecution of heretics, the First Crusade, followed by the castration of Abelard, and on, and on. The Church monopolized all learning and forced it to be interpreted through a biblical lens. Sometimes something useful managed to escape. Anyone who dared to stray out of their little intellectual box could be crushed under a rock, if they were lucky. Books that didn’t meet Christian muster were destroyed, or lost to history forever. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/29 "2003-09-04T23:56:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*…followed by the castration of Abelard… \*\* As a point of fact, Abelard wasn’t “castrated for his heresies”, as that timeline says. He was castrated because he had an affair with, and then secretly married one of his students. When her family found out, they got their revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/30 "2003-09-04T23:59:51Z")
More generally, that timeline cherry picks historical events, sometimes gets them wrong (like the Abelard one), and tries to depict medieval Christianity in the worst possible light. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/31 "2003-09-05T00:17:41Z")
Whatever. Google: “heretic fork.” Now tell me about intellectual freedom in the Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![markdiscordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@markdiscordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdiscordia)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/32 "2003-09-05T01:01:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*Don’t think structurely, straight line thinkers, Christianity, with it’s ideas based in the individual’s ability to effect free thought, gave birth to the renascence which ultimately led to the explosion of the egalitarian concepts of western civilization. > > Concepts that have dominated the direction of world culture for the last 300 years. > > Celebrate rather than bitch. \*\* The medieval Catholic church most decidedly did NOT trust the individual to think for himself. The whole idea of the “personal relationship with god” or personal revelation from Bible study was the main theological dispute which drove the Reformation. Also, “egalitarianism” (as opposed to invidivualism) is an invention of the French Revolution, a movement which violently rejected the church. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/33 "2003-09-05T12:06:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Whatever. Google: “heretic fork.” Now tell me about intellectual freedom in the Middle Ages. \*\* First, I find a lot of records of the Heretic’s Fork being used in the Spanish Inquisition, and some of it being used in the Roman Inquisition, but not really before that. Do you know that it was used in the middle ages, and not just the rennaisance. Second, heretics ain’t scientists. The Catholic Church could at the same time persecute the Albegensians and support the study of mathematics. Third, that doesn’t change the fact that your site is biased and in parts incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385/34 "2003-09-05T12:14:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > \*\*It does. The church was not the monolithic, unified organism that most moderns believe that it must have been. It was just as fractious as any other international and multi-ethnic organization. Elements assisted, elements hindered. \*\* True, true. > [@](#): > > \*\*If you are saying that modern science and scholarship are not also heavily influenced by ideology, then I definitely have some good books to suggest to you. \*\* Oh, they’re influenced by ideology, yes – but now such a thing is regarded as inherently negative and corrupting (by others, if not necessarily by the researchers in question). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-medeival-christian-church-champion-of-science/197385.md?page=1)