# The media assumes I know why grand jury processes should be redacted from the Mueller report... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 30, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743 "2019-03-30T02:58:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/1 "2019-03-30T02:58:58Z")
…but I admit I have no clue what grand jury processes are, or why they would be included in the Mueller report, or if they should be included, why they should be kept secret. They gloss over that part like it’s something you learn in kindergarten. Anyone want to fight ignorance and help a brother out? ---
**Author:** ![oliversarmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb8c5e/32.png) [@oliversarmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliversarmy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/2 "2019-03-30T04:35:37Z")
A grand jury is made up of citizens and is assembled to make sure the state has enough evidence to prosecute a person for committing a crime. The prosecuting attorney takes the evidence of a crime and presents the evidence based on the sworn testimony of law enforcement. If the grand jury determines that the evidence is sufficient to prosecute, then then an indictment is issued. After an indictment, the person accused is tried before a petit jury of his or her peers. If you vote as a citizen, you may be called to act as a grand or petit juror. The purpose of the grand jury is to prevent overreach of authority in prosecution. This explanation only applies in the United States. I’m sure I missed some legal points and I’m sure someone will be along to correct any errors. ---
**Author:** ![oliversarmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb8c5e/32.png) [@oliversarmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliversarmy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/3 "2019-03-30T04:39:25Z")
Also, the reason grand jury is kept secret is to assure the safety of the grand jury from possible repercussions of their decisions. It is one of the foundations of United States criminal law. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/4 "2019-03-30T06:21:47Z")
OK, but I don’t think Mueller would include the GJ members’ names in the report. Or maybe he does and that would be redacted, but I don’t think that is what the media is referring to. I don’t think it’s just names of the grand jury members. Edit to clarify: I’m not asking for a definition of a grand jury. I’m asking why the media says that grand jury-related materials and processes are expected to be redacted as a given, like “no duh, of course they’ll redact that.” But I don’t know what the hell is so obvious. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/5 "2019-03-30T06:24:03Z")
Note that only a small fraction of criminal cases go through a grand jury. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/6 "2019-03-30T06:40:13Z")
> [@nate](#): > > OK, but I don’t think Mueller would include the GJ members’ names in the report. Or maybe he does and that would be redacted, but I don’t think that is what the media is referring to. I don’t think it’s just names of the grand jury members. > > Edit to clarify: I’m not asking for a definition of a grand jury. I’m asking why the media says that grand jury-related materials and processes are expected to be redacted as a given, like “no duh, of course they’ll redact that.” But I don’t know what the hell is so obvious. That’s because the proceedings of a federal grand jury are always secret. [Here’s](https://fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/R45456.pdf) why]: > [@](#): > > Traditionally, the grand jury has conducted its work in secret. Secrecy prevents those under scrutiny from fleeing > or importuning the grand jurors, encourages full disclosure by witnesses, and protects the innocent from > unwarranted prosecution, among other things. The long-established rule of grand jury secrecy is enshrined in > Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6(e), which provides that government attorneys and the jurors themselves, > among others, “must not disclose a matter occurring before the grand jury.” Accordingly, as a general matter, > persons and entities external to the grand jury process are precluded from obtaining transcripts of grand jury > testimony or other documents or information that would reveal what took place in the proceedings, even if the > grand jury has concluded its work and even if the information is sought pursuant to otherwise-valid legal > processes ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/7 "2019-03-30T07:31:44Z")
> [@oliversarmy](#): > > Also, the reason grand jury is kept secret is to assure the safety of the grand jury from possible repercussions of their decisions. That’s not the reason. Grand jury investigations are kept secret because the people being investigated have not been accused of a crime until and if the grand jury returns an indictment. A grand jury may investigate a large number of people who are never indicted, and they don’t deserve to have their reputations harmed if they’re not going to be accused of a crime. A secondary consideration is that grand jury investigations often proceed in parallel with active criminal investigations and you don’t want to tip off the bad guys by letting them know a grand jury is investigating their associates. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/8 "2019-03-30T08:01:10Z")
There is reference to ‘processes’. Being from another country, without secret juries but having sat on a normal jury, the only ‘process’ not played out in open court were discussion of the case and evidence between the jurors [and bickering about the food]. Are there actual ‘processes’ that happen in-camera that are more than being presented evidence and then talking about it? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/9 "2019-03-30T08:13:00Z")
Grand juries don’t determine guilt. The standard is that the preponderance of evidence is sufficient for prosecution. Because the subject is not judged by the standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, that subject is protected by the assurance that the members of the prosecution, and the grand jurors themselves will not make public statements or reveal information obtained during the investigation. That is done to prevent using accusations to harm innocent persons. The fact that it also allows investigators to hide from suspects is a side effect. The proscription against revealing information does not apply to everyone involved in the process, but does include the prosecution, and the grand jurors themselves. Tris ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/10 "2019-03-30T08:24:15Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Note that only a small fraction of criminal cases go through a grand jury. The grand jury was invented in England but today is used only in the U.S.A. and Liberia. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > The federal government is required to use grand juries for all felonies, though not misdemeanors, by the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution. While all states in the U.S. currently have provisions for grand juries, only half of the states actually employ them and twenty-two require their use, to varying extents. The modern trend is to use an adversarial preliminary hearing before a trial court judge, rather than grand jury, in the screening role of determining whether there is evidence establishing probable cause that a defendant committed a serious felony before that defendant is required to go to trial and risk a conviction on those charges. > > California, Florida, and some other states, also use ‘civil grand juries’, ‘investigating grand juries’, or the equivalent, to oversee and investigate the conduct of government institutions, in addition to dealing with criminal indictments. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/11 "2019-03-30T12:04:06Z")
> [@nate](#): > > …but I admit I have no clue what grand jury processes are, or why they would be included in the Mueller report, or if they should be included, why they should be kept secret. They gloss over that part like it’s something you learn in kindergarten. Anyone want to fight ignorance and help a brother out? Under Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6(e), there is a general prohibition on disclosing what takes place before a grand jury. (This is why you’ll see grand jury material referred to a “6(e) material”). There are exceptions, of course, but (broadly speaking) the DOJ (whether Mueller or Barr) aren’t allowed to disclose 6(e) materials to anyone other than fellow DOJ attorneys (and then only in connection with the grand jury investigation, not, for example, a parallel civil investigation) without a court order. I also think there are specific rules depending on where the grand jury sits to help determine the scope of the protection. For better or worse, in my experience, this is one of the things that federal law enforcement takes very seriously. But, in any event, it’s one of those universally accepted truths (at least in the law enforcement community). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/12 "2019-03-30T14:18:00Z")
Apparently, grand juries are used to indict ham sandwiches. The joke goes that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if the prosecutor tells them to. The prosecutor trots out all of the evidence he has. Since the proceeding are secret and the person(s) under consideration have no knowledge or participation, the evidence is all one-sided. Since the point is to determine if there is enough evidence to go to trial, this sort of seems logical - but depending on what is presented or not, a case can seem stronger than it is. (but then this defeats the purpose of a GJ which is to determine if there’s enough evidence for a charge) What it is typically used for is to force people to either talk or perjure themselves, or send them to jail for contempt. Anyone can be hauled in front of a GJ to testify about something, and unlike in police interrogations, must either talk under oath or plead the fifth or face contempt charges for refusing; so the DA can get a pretty clear idea what the testimony will be before going to trial, and hence get all the levers necessary to figure out what deals need to be offered for testimony in trial. It’s basically forced interrogation under oath, which is why most other jurisdictions except the USA don’t allow it any more. (“Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!”) The secrecy is simple - the DA does not want the people involved in the crime to know what he does and does not know, or who is singing like a canary and who isn’t. Among other reasons, this prevents the subject(s) of investigation from fleeing, coercing witnesses, or hiding evidence before charges are laid, same reason police investigations are not made public. ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/13 "2019-03-30T19:16:21Z")
Popehat actually did a lawsplainer about federal grand juries. It was done when Mueller empaneled a Grand Jury at the start of this investigation, and is targetted at folks who read that headline and wondered what the heck it meant, why it mattered, etc… The main writer is an actual practicing lawyer (with a passion for freedom of speech issues). I think most of the other contributors there are also in the legal profession, as well. But, they don’t have the dry, jargon-heavy style of most legal writings. Here’s the link: [https://www.popehat.com/2017/08/07/lawsplainer-how-federal-grand-juries-work-part-one/](https://www.popehat.com/2017/08/07/lawsplainer-how-federal-grand-juries-work-part-one/) ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2019, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/14 "2019-03-31T05:52:59Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > There is reference to ‘processes’. > > Being from another country, without secret juries but having sat on a normal jury, the only ‘process’ not played out in open court were discussion of the case and evidence between the jurors [and bickering about the food]. . By no means! I see that you are from Aus. The Crown Prosecutor takes the Grand Jury role and the department decides if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute. That information and the consideration is not public. Other stuff happens in chambers, and there is a lot of invisible court process that just happens in the offices. Also, just to be clear, the section of the murder (or was it kidnapping?) trial that I attended as a school child was taking place in the absence of the jury, and the accused, and the witnesses. (It was boring, and after a while we left.) ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-assumes-i-know-why-grand-jury-processes-should-be-redacted-from-the-mueller-report/831743/15 "2019-04-01T08:45:26Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > By no means! I see that you are from Aus. The Crown Prosecutor takes the Grand Jury role and the department decides if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute. That information and the consideration is not public. > > Other stuff happens in chambers, and there is a lot of invisible court process that just happens in the offices. > > Also, just to be clear, the section of the murder (or was it kidnapping?) trial that I attended as a school child was taking place in the absence of the jury, and the accused, and the witnesses. (It was boring, and after a while we left.) Thanks for the reply and clarification. If I’d thought about it I would have phrased it better.