# The Media Treatment of Rand Paul - Knee Jerk Reactionism by Mental Midgets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2010, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445 "2010-05-23T08:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/241 "2010-05-25T07:05:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > (You do know what market failure is, right?) He will as soon as he reads the first paragraph of the Wiki article found upon entering “market failure” into a Google search. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/242 "2010-05-25T07:08:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But nobody actually **is** “basing their recommendations for all other industries based on how this crippled industry performed”. Nobody wants, say, the widget-making industry to have its customer-service policies regulated the way that health insurance policies need to be. My whole point was that **Fear Itself** cited health insurance as an example of how the free market fails. I took issue with this, since there is very little “free” involved in this heavily regulated industry and there are hundreds of examples of much freer industries where the free market does work for the benefit of everybody. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, any rational person recognizes that. Rational people also recognize, however, that there are many situations in which “the free market” **doesn’t** work well. That’s the “market failure” problem I was talking about. (You do know what market failure is, right?) So why don’t you talk about real market failures and government failures (you do know what government failure is, right?) instead of defending incorrect arguments that health insurance is an example of a free market? > [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not the reason that insurance exists from the **insurer** ’s point of view, but it’s definitely the reason that insurance exists from the **concerned citizen** ’s point of view. No. It is not the reason insurance exists based on the very definition of “insurance.” For example, one of the most important tools that insurers have is risk appraising. If insurers are prevented from “cherry-picking the lowest-risk customers” by law, then you cannot claim that your high rate is due to the free market (and I cited many other examples of distortions). It appears that you want to redefine the whole purpose of “insurance” because you claim to be a concerned citizen. This is fine and obviously lawmakers who created all the laws affecting health insurers shared your concerns and you successfully created the system that we have today. Congrats. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Heh. Your link points out that what makes the US a more attractive market for drug trials is that the drug companies can charge consumers lots more for their drugs here. > > So we get our drugs approved faster than the Europeans do, because we’re willing to pay an arm and a leg more for them than the Europeans are. > > Well, that’s a not-unreasonable tradeoff from both sides of the issue, but it sure doesn’t add up to an unqualified endorsement of unregulated drug prices. However, it does add up to my statement that simplistic government solutions can create unintended consequences, which many well-intentioned statists completely fail to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/243 "2010-05-25T07:11:35Z")
Hey, **erez** , is there a choice other than “statist” and “just like erez”? Does it have a nifty label? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/244 "2010-05-25T07:12:23Z")
> [@jrodefeld](#): > > He’s the son of Ron Paul. Trust me, he’ll be pretty libertarian. **He is using the Republican apparatus to become elected however**. He is not going to campaign on the war on drugs or immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan. \*\* He is playing it safe\*\*. \*\*emphasis added Are you asserting that Rand Paul is lying to the American people in order to get elected? Or are you just attributing to him positions that he doesn’t hold but you would sure like him to? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/245 "2010-05-25T07:21:16Z")
That’s silly, the assertion isn’t that he’s lying to the people of America in order to get elected. It’s that he’s lying to the people of Kentucky in order to get elected. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/246 "2010-05-25T07:25:19Z")
Touche! ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/247 "2010-05-25T07:25:53Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Don’t you see, **Kimstu**? The primary purpose of the health care system isn’t to provide health care to individuals, but to earn as much money as possible for the stockholders of the insurance companies! By using government coercion to force health care businesses to serve the needs of the patients you’re DESTROYING a powerful engine of wealth creation for the stockholders. You need to get your priorities straight! Nice straw man. I was talking about health care **insurance** , not “health care system.” In the very post you quoted: > [@](#): > > I think the biggest difference we have is that you seem to think that the reason **insurance** exists is to fulfill some public health goals that you have. That’s not the idea of **insurance.** Your post is really laughable, since you apparently think that the recently signed health care reform bill will hurt insurance companies’ profits. Hint: the market disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/248 "2010-05-25T07:33:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The trouble with libertarians is that no amount of freedom from regulations is enough. No matter how few regulations there are or how loose they are, if a company or market does something stupid or evil, it’s never because the regulations were too permissive. No failure is ever laid at the feet of the Almighty Free Market, because it’s never free enough. The supremacy of the market is a matter of faith for them, and any failure of the market is because it’s No True Free Market. Maybe if you want to analyze free market failures you should try choosing from one of the hundreds of examples of at least nominally free market industries instead of choosing one of the most heavily regulated industries? Crying when getting called on the fact that you choose a biased sample won’t help. I’m also sure that you will be analyzing government failures in the same thorough fashion. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/249 "2010-05-25T07:43:42Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > He will as soon as he reads the first paragraph of the Wiki article found upon entering “market failure” into a Google search. Ahh, yet another personal attack and not a hint of a cogent argument. I lucked out today! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/250 "2010-05-25T07:45:27Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Maybe if you want to analyze free market failures you should try choosing from one of the hundreds of examples of at least nominally free market industries instead of choosing one of the most heavily regulated industries? Crying when getting called on the fact that you choose a biased sample won’t help. I didn’t say a word about health care. It doesn’t matter, since libertarians say the same thing about everything; the problem is always too much regulation. Never too little. > [@erez](#): > > I’m also sure that you will be analyzing government failures in the same thorough fashion. I’m not claiming that government is the solution to all problems. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/251 "2010-05-25T08:26:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Hey, **erez** , is there a choice other than “statist” and “just like erez”? Does it have a nifty label? If your dislike of conversational shortcuts presents a large obstacle to your participation in this thread, I will be sure to avoid such nifty labels, even if they do pretty accurately describe the positions of many people in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/252 "2010-05-25T08:31:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I didn’t say a word about health care. It doesn’t matter, since libertarians say the same thing about everything; the problem is always too much regulation. Never too little. > > I’m not claiming that government is the solution to all problems. Then I have a question specifically for you, **Der Trihs** : ignoring things like free-speech abuses, would you say that Venezuelan President Chavez’s economic policies are taking that country in the right direction? Do you think he is going too far or not far enough? Do you think that his policies will improve or worsen Venezuelan economy in the long run? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/253 "2010-05-25T08:42:34Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Then I have a question specifically for you, **Der Trihs** : ignoring things like free-speech abuses, would you say that Venezuelan President Chavez’s economic policies are taking that country in the right direction? Do you think he is going too far or not far enough? Do you think that his policies will improve or worsen Venezuelan economy in the long run? Since I haven’t been paying much attention to him I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/254 "2010-05-25T08:47:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since I haven’t been paying much attention to him I have no idea. OK, thank you for the answer. If you decide to read more about his economic policies (they are pretty widely covered by the U.S. media), I will be interested in your input. I welcome answers from others as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/255 "2010-05-25T12:08:20Z")
> [@erez](#): > > OK, thank you for the answer. If you decide to read more about his economic policies (they are pretty widely covered by the U.S. media), I will be interested in your input. I welcome answers from others as well. Sounds like a good topic for a new thread. Why don’t you start one? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/256 "2010-05-25T12:26:40Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Then I have a question specifically for you, **Der Trihs** : ignoring things like free-speech abuses, would you say that Venezuelan President Chavez’s economic policies are taking that country in the right direction? Do you think he is going too far or not far enough? Do you think that his policies will improve or worsen Venezuelan economy in the long run? You are misunderstanding his post. He’s not saying that too much govt regulation is never a problem, he’s saying that when Libertarians look at a problem they always assume it is because of too much regulation, and never consider that it may be the opposite. It’s a True Scotsmen situation. I don’t like Libertarians \*or \* Chavez because they are both ideologues. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/257 "2010-05-25T13:21:28Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > You are misunderstanding his post. He’s not saying that too much govt regulation is never a problem, he’s saying that when Libertarians look at a problem they always assume it is because of too much regulation, and never consider that it may be the opposite. It’s a True Scotsmen situation. > > I don’t like Libertarians \*or \* Chavez because they are both ideologues. Start with a certain level of regulation. Remove some regulation. Situation worsens. Clearly the answer is we didn’t deregulate _enough_! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/258 "2010-05-25T16:38:29Z")
> [@erez](#): > > If your dislike of conversational shortcuts presents a large obstacle to your participation in this thread, I will be sure to avoid such nifty labels, even if they do pretty accurately describe the positions of many people in this thread. No, it was a serious question. In your posts, you only ever describe people as 1 of 2 things: they are either “libertarian” or “statist”. Are there any classifications in between the two, or are those our only options? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/259 "2010-05-25T17:33:29Z")
> [@erez](#): > > So why don’t you talk about real market failures and government failures (you do know what government failure is, right?) instead of defending incorrect arguments that health insurance is an example of a free market? Okay, apparently you don’t in fact understand the technical-term sense of “market failure”. Brief explanation: “[Market failure](http://tutor2u.net/economics/content/topics/marketfail/market_failure.htm)” isn’t just a general expression meaning loosely “any situation in which a market did not happen to work well”. It’s an economics concept implying, to get technical, that there’s a Pareto sub-optimal allocation of resources, and consequently that the normal operation of market mechanisms doesn’t result in economic efficiency. There are specific types of situations that are designated as “market failures”, because they violate the required conditions for the efficient operation of free markets. The one that I mentioned in a previous post as affecting healthcare markets is _positive externalities_, meaning that some positive effect(s) of a good are too widely dispersed beyond the individual consumer for the producer to be able to successfully charge the consumer for them. For instance, the improved public health and financial stability resulting from universal health insurance coverage are very positive effects for society as a whole, but individual consumers don’t perceive them as individual benefits that they should pay for in their individual premiums. In short, you’ve interpreted my argument exactly backwards. I’m not arguing that health insurance is an example of a free market. My point is that because of the existence of this and other market failures in the healthcare industry, _ **health insurance is NOT in fact an example of a free market, and intrinsically CAN’T WORK as a free market** _. Not if its ultimate purpose is to serve the social goals that I mentioned above. > [@erez](#): > > I think the biggest difference we have is that you seem to think that the reason insurance exists is to fulfill some public health goals that you have. > [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not the reason that insurance exists from the insurer’s point of view, but it’s definitely the reason that insurance exists from the concerned citizen’s point of view. > [@erez](#): > > No. It is not the reason insurance exists based on the very definition of “insurance.” For example, one of the most important tools that insurers have is risk appraising. If insurers are prevented from “cherry-picking the lowest-risk customers” by law, then you cannot claim that your high rate is due to the free market […] What does that have to do with the reason that insurance exists in the first place? Insurance, from the citizen’s point of view, exists to fulfill a social goal: namely, to make health care more accessible and affordable by spreading its costs throughout a broader risk pool. Whether or not insurers are allowed by the government to cherry-pick customers via risk appraisal is irrelevant to the more fundamental question of why insurance exists at all, which is what I thought we were discussing until you went off on a tangent. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445/260 "2010-05-25T17:45:47Z")
Dayum, **Kimstu**. You must have read like, a really big economics book, with like, a really big highlighter and everything! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-media-treatment-of-rand-paul-knee-jerk-reactionism-by-mental-midgets/540445.md?page=14)