# The Mental Image Conveyed by "liberal" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328 "2005-02-28T19:04:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/41 "2005-03-02T20:16:50Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > That poor enough for ya? I applaud your family’s ability to rise above poverty through hard work. My point was not that it can’t happen, but that a simple claim of immigrant origins do not tell us what we need to know to judge whether it is true in all cases. For every story like yours, there are a thousand others with tragic endings. For those with less humble beginnings, the odds are not as long. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/42 "2005-03-02T20:39:41Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Which tells us exactly nothing about how difficult it was for you to get where you are today. Not all immigrants are tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free. You say you were not remotely wealthy; were you remotely poor? Did your father work in car wash, or pick strawberries, or cut lawns; or was he already solidly middle class when he came here, perhaps an engineer, lawyer or businessman? Until you provide us with more information, we really have no idea what odds you struggled against, or if you struggled at all. When my father first came here, he was most certainly NOT middle class. Not only did he work menial jobs, but he sent much of the money he made back to El Salvador to help support his mother and family there. We were poor. Period. I don’t know how to say it any plainer than that. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/43 "2005-03-02T21:05:58Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Be that as it may, affirmative action programs that give preferential treatment to minorities\* are very unpopular in the US. Here in CA, almost every anti-affirmative action initiative put to the ballot has passed with a solid majority. And CA is probably more “liberal” than most states. So, the fact is, as long as liberals support racial preference programs, that’s one more reason that many (most?) people will have a negative image of the term “liberal”. And this is not just due to “poor marketting” by liberals. I’m conflicted over this issue. On the one hand, I do believe in equal treatment for everyone. But on the other hand, I know that in real life we don’t all start out on a level playing field, and pretending that there’s no problem isn’t going to make it go away. I side with the Supreme Court on this one. Quotas go too far, but it’s not impermissable to take race into consideration with other factors to ensure a diverse student body. And like the Supreme Court, I expect in the next 25 years or so this will no longer be necessary. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/44 "2005-03-02T22:56:11Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’m conflicted over this issue. On the one hand, I do believe in equal treatment for everyone… I didn’t really want to turn this into a debate on AA, per se, but on whether that issue was a plus or a minus for the “liberals”. I see it as a significant minus, and one that is not a simple matter of getting a better PR agent. There definitely are some issues that lend themselves to PR, but I don’t see that this is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/45 "2005-03-03T15:07:00Z")
> [@PinkMarabou](#): > > I don’t know, the message of helping your neighbor gets lost quite frequently. Apparently it’s more important to die with the most toys rather than making sure everyone is comfortable and healthy. What’s sad about all this is that most people BELIEVE they have a chance to change their social class. This “American Dream” is really only for those who began life with a silver spoon. The real problem with the American Dream is that it’s such a seductive narrative. There have been studies cited in Ferdinand Lundberg’s “The Rich and the Super Rich” which showed that even very poor people preferred that wealthy people not get taxed too heavily because THEY don’t want to pay taxes when THEY get wealthy. The book also cites economic data that shows that although there’s a good deal of migration between being poor and being middle class, there’s very little migration between the middle class and the upper class. To be fair, the book was written in 1969, so it’s more than a little out of date, but the figures I’ve heard about the increasing control of American’s wealth by a small minority of Americans shows that nothing much has changed in the intervening decades – and if it has changed, it has changed for the worse among the average folks. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/46 "2005-03-03T15:16:01Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > It, meaning the economy, is not a static when it comes to size - or structure.The top 10% of wage earners already pay 65% of the income taxes in the US & the top 50% pay 98% - how much more do you want them to pony up before the incentive to earn more is completely erased? The reason that they pay so much of the taxes is that they control so much of the wealth. [/QUOTE] [Check this site out for some interesting information along these lines.](http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth.htm) The figures are from the Federal Reserve Board. Note that the bottom 40% of U.S. citizens owns less than 1/2 of one percent of the wealth in the United States. What are you advocating, taking their rice and beans away so the wealthy have less of a “burden”? > [@](#): > > The total unravelling of the OP’s ignorant economic pipe dreams will come the day Americans begin to realize that, “no, it’s not 1/3 of a penny out of your tax dollar that goes to fund program X” but rather “every tax dollar collected from 2,347 people all year goes to fund it”. Ignorant pipe dream hell. Just because I haven’t swallowed everything the Cato Institute spills out, doesn 't mean I’m ignorant. It means I’m skeptical. You, apparently, are not skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/47 "2005-03-03T15:39:39Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > You might want to rething your phrasing in the future. It’s a bit difficult taking an OP seriously when they mention “ass kicking” like we’re talking about football, “wrassling”, or a bar brawl. Sure, you’d like it if I sounded like an Eastern liberal elitist, wouldn’t you? Ain’t gonna happen, noway nohow. > [@](#): > > I think liberals have had something to do with the reluctance of the middle class to take up their banner whole heartedly. It isn’t so much that the conservaties frame the debate it’s that the public just isn’t buying everything the liberals are selling. People still remember LBJ’s Great Society and of course the dismal economy of the 1970’s. But not Clinton’s robust economy? :dubious: > [@](#): > > During the 20’s and 30’s there were plenty of leftist Americans who thought the Soviet Union and communism was a fantastic. Well, compared to the widespread hunger and homelessness in the U.S. during the Great Depression, you gotta admit, they didn’t look so bad as they do now. Plus, the New York Times was printing lies about conditions in the Soviet Union, making them look better than they were. Potemkin villages and such were working. [qoute]I lived in Germany during the 1980’s and unless things have changed drastically I didn’t notice their standard of living being much different then the United States. [/quote] Here’s an interesting little statistic to chew on: > [@](#): > > "Recent statistics are “troubling,” says Travis Plunkett, legislative director of the Consumer Federation of America. Among them: > > • Personal bankruptcies peaked in 2003 with a record 1.6 million cases filed - a rate of 185 an hour. That annual total is nearly double the 812,898 filings in 1993. > • Household debt stood at $8.9 trillion last year, a record high relative to disposable income, that is, income after taxes. > • Credit-card defaults rose more than 55 percent in the past four years. > • Home mortgage foreclosures are up 45 percent in the same time span. > > Mortgage foreclosures, Warren says, not only may force a family into homelessness, but can hurt home values on the entire street. > Proponents of the tougher bankruptcy measures say too many people are gaming the system, engaging in a spending splurge, going bankrupt to clear their debts, and then repeating the process. Debtors capable of repaying their debts can often “walk away from their financial obligations,” complains the American Bankers Association. > Warren counters that more than 90 percent of bankruptcies arise from job loss, onerous medical bills not covered by health insurance, and divorce. [Here’s the site it’s from.](http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/BankruptcyNews.htm) > [@](#): > > Most of us are raised to believe that being productive is good. So when we’re unemployed we feel pretty bad even if it isn’t our fault. I hope the day never comes that I’m indifferent to being unemployed. Wealthy people have historically considered being employed as a sign that you’re not a high-status person any more. Are they evil? > [@](#): > > Are you sure the American middle class is the right target for such talk? Isn’t the middle class already likely to have access to health insurance and other forms of “freedom and power?” To put it simply, no. Middle class people with incomes of as much as $50K a year are increasingly faces the loss of health insurance. [Here’s a site with some stats. There are a lot of them.](http://www.arnoldwatch.org/articles/articles_000537.php3) > [@](#): > > Please eloborate, what is the liberal plan to avoid long commutes? I’m curious as to whether or not it involves mass transit and mass migrations back to the city. Telecommuting and better city planning to allow people to live closer to workplaces, for two. > [@](#): > > What makes you think they don’t already pay their fair share of the taxes? See my earlier cite on the book “Perfectly Legal.” > [@](#): > > Unless you seriously contend that houses being built these days are all mansions and nothing is affordable. [You mean you weren’t aware of the huge problem of rising housing costs?](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/19/national/main529954.shtml) > [@](#): > > Here lies the crux of the problem. Nobody’s really buying your empty promises. The problem is that, as Sevastopol has said, conservative media have people like you almost totally blinded to what’s really going on around them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/48 "2005-03-03T16:09:01Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > But not Clinton’s robust economy? Are you claiming Clinton was an economic liberal?? :dubious: -XT ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/49 "2005-03-04T03:59:19Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Excuse me if I’m not shedding any tears over some rich white kid who has to go with his second choice of colleges Thank you for proving my point. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/50 "2005-03-04T06:21:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I associate them with high taxes, pie in the sky social programs, naive economic policies and softness on crime and defense. My perception is that as an upper-white middle class male, my role in Liberal America is to work and pay high taxes for social programs I will never use. What do you want us to give you, a cookie?\* Serious answer: Just because you’re doing ok now, doesn’t mean it’s impossible some serious of unfortunate events might lead you into bankrupcy and you’ll be needing some help to pull yourself back up to where you were. Perhaps unlikely, but I doubt impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/51 "2005-03-04T06:27:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Thank you for proving my point. What exactly will motivate you then? Does it take a lucrative government no bid contract to a company you’re heavily invested in to make it worth your while to support? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/52 "2005-03-04T08:18:16Z")
> [@Max\_Castle](#): > > Affirmative action policies say it’s okay to treat people differently based on their race. Whites and asians are generally the ones discriminated against by such policies. Therefore, they are treated as second class citizens. I think you’re confused. Removing the unfair advantages we already enjoy does not equal discriminating against us. \*\*Not \*\*treating minorites as second-class citizens does not equal treating us as second-class citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/53 "2005-03-04T13:42:42Z")
> [@Dr. Rieux](#): > > I think you’re confused. Removing the unfair advantages we already enjoy does not equal discriminating against us. \*\*Not \*\*treating minorites as second-class citizens does not equal treating us as second-class citizens. I think you’re confused about the scope of “affirmative action.” Among other things, this refers to the practice of hiring a minority over an equally or better-qualified non-minority. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/54 "2005-03-04T16:52:07Z")
I think we’ve gone far afield here. My main point was that any progressive or liberal program needs to be tooled to appeal to middle class dreams and aspirations, with a distinctive awareness of how conservatives have succeeded in characterizing liberal goals as something out of 1984. We need to emphasize choice, autonomy and freedom as the result of liberal and progressive policies. I think it can be done, easily. We just need to start emphasizing something that the poor and the middle class already know – that how much discretionary income you have has a LOT more to do with how much choice you have in the world, than almost anything else. And liberal and progressive policies tend to put money in the pockets of the poor and the middle class, by dealing with the big problems they have … housing costs, medical costs, etc. The poor and the middle class are relentless “follow the money” types, they’ll buy what we say because they remember how well Clinton does. (It really doesn’t matter if he was an economic liberal or not – he was a Democrat, which makes him more of a liberal than Republicans on economic issues by default. Affirmative action is a good program that conservatives have used to fan the flames of white resentment over not being able to relegate blacks to the low end of the totem pole automatically. But it’s also a side issue to the main argument as I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/55 "2005-03-04T17:46:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think you’re confused about the scope of “affirmative action.” Among other things, this refers to the practice of hiring a minority over an equally or better-qualified non-minority. Hiring a minority over a better qualified non-minority? I’m against that. But if we’re talking about a tie here in terms of qualifications, I don’t really object to making it a tie breaker. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/56 "2005-03-04T17:54:54Z")
I second that thought. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/57 "2005-03-04T18:04:37Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Hiring a minority over a better qualified non-minority? I’m against that. But if we’re talking about a tie here in terms of qualifications, I don’t really object to making it a tie breaker. I don’t really find the “tie” argument of much use.-- it’s too hypothetical. The kinds of programs that most Americans don’t like are those such as the U of Mich admission standards that give extra points to minorities. This is a real world example, and a recent SC case, too. If that’s the brand of AA you’re selling, most Americans aren’t buying it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/58 "2005-03-04T18:18:29Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Hiring a minority over a better qualified non-minority? I’m against that. But if we’re talking about a tie here in terms of qualifications, I don’t really object to making it a tie breaker. Why not make the tie breaker ‘need’ instead…wouldn’t that be more in line with liberal philosophy? hehe, it would put you into a quandry if the white guy ‘needed’ the job more than the minority though…perhaps enough so that heads would explode. 🙂 This attitude of trying to give an advantage to the poor helpless minority is fine by me, btw. The more free breaks tossed my way the more advantage I’ll take…I’d be a complete fool to do otherwise, and minorities of whatever stripe who DON’T take advantage of whats out there ARE fools IMO. Whenever I hear liberals rail at the lack of oppurtunity for minorities in this country I howl with derision…they have no idea what they are talking about. The fact that some minorities don’t take advantage of the oppurtunities out there doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I think its unfair as hell, but I’m MORE than willing to take advantage as it gives me a HUGE advantage over others…especially over non-veteran (there are a few veteran owned set asides out there that whites can take advantage of) whites in the same niche market. My company is an 8A, and most of our government contracts are special minority only set-asides…or teaming with big companies that want to use our status. My education was partially funded by government programs and grants for hispanics (well, some of it was funded by me working of course and the rest by private hispanic grants which I’ve repaid with interest in the hopes that OTHER hispanic Americans can do what I have been able too do). Those same government programs and grants are available to other hispanics…if they choose to take advantage of them. If they don’t…well, more the fool they. As for quotas, personally I think the time for them is long past. If it really is a ‘tie’ (and I’ve been hireing people as a manager or now as a business owner for over 20 years and can’t remember this situation ever coming up where two people I interview are so close a fit, with the same credentials, etc that I couldn’t decide) then flip a coin. In reality decide based on which person is the best ‘fit’ for your company based on what you think they will bring to the company…not on their skin color, sexual preference or religion. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/59 "2005-03-04T18:44:34Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why not make the tie breaker ‘need’ instead…wouldn’t that be more in line with liberal philosophy? hehe, it would put you into a quandry if the white guy ‘needed’ the job more than the minority though…perhaps enough so that heads would explode. 🙂 It seems that comic strips like mallrd Fillmore perpatrait the idea that liberals heads explode (metaphoricaly) when confronted by an idea they did not expect. I always interpreted it as the writter imposing his own feeling on the shadowy " other side" How I would interpret the above senario, i.e. two people, both poor and in need of a job, both equally qualified, is that the non-white guy should get the job. I am white. It sounds far to me, even if I was the one who would wind up with no job, since a history of repression has left a legacy of repression and discrimination. And I have other prospects. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328/60 "2005-03-04T19:44:15Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > How I would interpret the above senario, i.e. two people, both poor and in need of a job, both equally qualified, is that the non-white guy should get the job. I am white. It sounds far to me, even if I was the one who would wind up with no job, since a history of repression has left a legacy of repression and discrimination. And I have other prospects. You’re entitled to your view, and I’m pleased that this is your view, since it’s a view NOT shared by the majority, and efforts by the left to implement it will cost more votes than it wins. It doesn’t remotely sound fair to me, even though I am, theoretically, entitled to benefit from this view, being of Hispanic origin. (In practice, it’s a coin toss - my name is certainly Hispanic, but I’m relatively fair-skinned and speak with no accent, so I suspect I ‘pass’ – but if someone is checking blocks on a form somewhere, I’d be entitled to the job over another fair-skinned person named Miller or Fletcher. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mental-image-conveyed-by-liberal/292328.md?page=4)