# the mess in Syria is about to get messier **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 30, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835 "2018-01-30T21:20:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835/101 "2018-04-15T16:02:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What gripes do you have with the announcement? Sure, it was no Gettysburg Address, but it was coherent and delivered intelligibly. It was fine. Unfortunately, we have more than sufficient evidence about what Trump thinks and says off-script vs. (medicated?) on script. It wasn’t “fine”; it was farcical. You can continue to insist that he can be coherent or competent when every now and then his handlers can get him to control his angry outburst and ADHD streams of consciousness, but even you must admit that the (former) exception is not the true measure of the man. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835/102 "2018-04-15T16:05:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Unfortunately, we have more than sufficient evidence about what Trump thinks and says off-script vs. (medicated?) on script. It wasn’t “fine”; it was farcical. > > You can continue to insist that he can be coherent or competent when every now and then his handlers can get him to control his angry outburst and ADHD streams of consciousness, but even you must admit that the (former) exception is not the true measure of the man. I never claimed any of this was “the true measure of the man”. You appear to be imagining things, or making things up yourself. I said he seemed “mature enough” in making the announcement about the Syria strikes. In this post, you seem to be acknowledging that that’s correct, but earlier it was “Do you hear yourself?” And “I’m embarrassed for you.” Do you think his announcement was ok, or not? Answer plainly please. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835/103 "2018-04-15T16:16:42Z")
Again, you’re avoiding the greater context of the messenger to focus only on the one message. I’ll meet you half way and agree that the announcement was written by adults and delivered in a restrained mature tone… By an imbecile with a long history of histrionics and immature unscripted outbursts. My cite are the tweets delivered in the past 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835/104 "2018-04-15T17:22:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I never claimed any of this was “the true measure of the man”. You appear to be imagining things, or making things up yourself. I said he seemed “mature enough” in making the announcement about the Syria strikes. In this post, you seem to be acknowledging that that’s correct, but earlier it was “Do you hear yourself?” And “I’m embarrassed for you.” Do you think his announcement was ok, or not? Answer plainly please. We judge people by their actions. Sometimes, we judge people by when they at their worst, and sometimes, when they at their best. While I will agree that it was relatively impressive that they managed to get him to stand still and read a speech off a teleprompter, when that speech is diametrically opposed to everything else he says and tweets, I don’t see how it can carry much weight. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835/105 "2018-04-30T10:00:34Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > > [@septimus](#): > > > > … The development of [the threat from Russia-Syria-Iran] is especially sad since in 2002 Iran, a relatively liberal and cosmopolitan country, _was begging to be America’s friend, but was rejected._ > > I don’t know where the hell some people get that idea, but thats not true at all. I have been to Iran. I have family from there. Liberal & cosmopolitan are two words which don’t come to mind _at all_. Please don’t mistake Iranians in the West (an often highly educated and integrated group) with the country of today. I was reminded of this subthread when I stumbled on [an article like this one.](http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/10/10/iran-trumps-gift-to-the-hard-liners/) > [@](#): > > The Ayatollah’s distrust of the Americans was not based on an irrational ideological obsession, but on experience. Outreach by the Iranians to the US had more often than not ended in misadventure or worse. In 1995, the then president, Hashemi Rafsanjani, offered the first post-revolution oil deal to the American oil company Conoco Inc. He judged that a political rapprochement between Washington and Tehran would be more successful if it was built on common economic interests. But President Bill Clinton responded by adopting two executive orders that effectively killed the Conoco deal and eliminated all US trade with Iran. > > Only weeks after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, moderate forces in Iran serving the reformist President Mohammad Khatami offered the US their help in defeating the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Iranians had been arming and funding the anti-Taliban coalition in Afghanistan for more than a decade. If Tehran could show its strategic utility to Washington, the Iranian government reasoned, then the George W. Bush administration would reciprocate and make possible a thaw in relations. According to Ambassador Jim Dobbins, President Bush’s personal envoy to Afghanistan, Iran played a critical part in both defeating the Taliban and securing the post-Taliban peace. > > But only weeks after the apex of US-Iran collaboration in Afghanistan—the 2001 Bonn conference, where a new leader was chosen for the Afghan Interim Authority—Bush identified Iran as part of the “axis of evil” that included Saddam Hussein’s Iraq and Kim Jong-il’s North Korea. Tehran was shocked. Once again, its collaboration with the US had been punished, rather than rewarded, by Washington. > > In March 2003, the Iranians submitted to Washington a comprehensive negotiation proposal … the Iranians offered to open their nuclear program up to full transparency, stabilize Iraq and ensure its government would not be sectarian (a goal the Iranians had helped achieve in Afghanistan), and collaborate against terrorist organizations—above all, al-Qaeda. In return, the Iranians wanted a strategic dialogue with Washington, the lifting of sanctions and a recognition of “Iran’s legitimate security interests.” > > But the Bush administration never responded. Instead, it reprimanded the Swiss ambassador for having delivered the proposal in the first place. Within the administration, any debate on the matter was shut down by then Vice President Dick Cheney, who simply asserted, “We don’t talk to evil.” Tehran was befuddled. If Washington was uninterested in changes to Iranian policies that it had itself identified as problematic, then the US’s real problem with Iran was not the country’s policies but its power, the Iranians concluded. And while countries can give up or amend policies, they cannot give up power. It may be almost too late to atone for all this blood under the bridge by now, but America’s failure to embrace Iran has been a major geopolitical blunder. The utter irony is that the confused Trump may go to North Korea’s Kim and negotiate a treaty far far worse than the Iran deal (or even a caricature thereof). But his base will lap it up: _“Trump is not Obama.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835/106 "2018-04-30T14:10:50Z")
Personally, I’d trust Iran more if at any point during the aforementioned overtures they’d any effort to muzzle their Hezbollah dogs in Lebanon. Reaching out to America with one hand while attacking Israel with the other is hardly indicative of good faith. But then, I’m not really objective. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835/107 "2018-04-30T15:13:25Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The utter irony is that the confused Trump may go to North Korea’s Kim and negotiate a treaty far far worse than the Iran deal (or even a caricature thereof). But his base will lap it up: _“Trump is not Obama.”_ Moon has just said that Trump deserves the Nobel Peace Prize if the Korean thing pans out. Unorthodox diplomacy can often work in situations where the old tired methods have produced nothing but continual stalemate. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835/108 "2018-12-19T21:55:44Z")
Updating this thread: > [@](#): > > Over 2,000 American special forces in the north of Syria, fighting the fight against ISIS, but also providing a significant bang for their buck. > But to widespread surprise, US President Donald Trump announced on Wednesday that the US intends to rapidly withdraw from Syria. [https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/19/middleeast/trump-troops-syria-npw-analysis-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/19/middleeast/trump-troops-syria-npw-analysis-intl/index.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mess-in-syria-is-about-to-get-messier/807835.md?page=5)