# The Messiah the Jews are waiting for. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270 "2003-08-06T04:11:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/21 "2003-08-07T00:26:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny Bravo \* > \*\*Here’s a [link](http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm) you might find enlightening. \*\* I’ll check it out. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/22 "2003-08-07T00:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Splanky \* > \*\*It’s my understanding that our messiah will be a mortal man. He will NOT be divine, or born through any type of miracle. He will return the Jews to the holy land, rebuild the temple and act as the king of the Jewish people. The Jews will be prosperous and will abandon all the unclean and unholy acts they’ve been practicing. > > He does not perform miracles or anything like that. That is god doing the tricks. Peace will spread not just to the Jews, but to everyone. I think that god will condemn other peoples and others will acknowledge the “one true god”. > > I’m a conservative Jew. \*\* Well, Israel is the Jewish homeland now right, so all the Jews not currently living there will return, and areas like the Temple Mount currently controlled by Muslims will be returned to Israel so that the temple can be rebuilt? Also, how long will this peace last? Since the Messiah will be human, he’ll grow old and die. Will there be a successor, or will the world return to the way it use to be? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/23 "2003-08-07T00:44:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > [BFrom 11:1 > “The king messiah will arise and restore the Davidic kingship of old. He will rebuild the Temple, gather in the exiles of Israel, restore the Laws of the Torah, bring sacrifices, and establish the Sabbatical and Jubilee years…” > > From 11:3 > “Do not entertain the notion that the messiah must perform signs and miracles or create new things or raise the dead or do anything along those lines. This is not the case, since Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest sages of the Mishna thought that Bar Koziva was the messiah … until he (Bar Koziva) was killed. And once he was killed, they realized that he wasn’t the messiah. But (while he was still alive) the Sages did not ask him for any (miraclulous) sign or wonder.” > > From 11:4 > “If a king arises from David, who follows the laws of the Torah as David his father did, according to the written law and the Oral tradition, and he gets all of Israel to follow it as well and fights battles for God, he is considered a presumtive messiah. If he does all this and is successful, and rebuilds the Temple in it’s place, and gathers in the exiles, then he is a definite messiah, and will cause all the world to worship God…” > Zev Steinhardt \*\* So, if I understand, he’ll do two things. 1. Unite all Jews into a Jewish utopia by restoring their homeland and religion completely. and 2. Cause all other peoples and nations to worship God. ---
**Author:** ![Splanky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@Splanky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Splanky)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/24 "2003-08-07T02:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > \*\*Well, Israel is the Jewish homeland now right, so all the Jews not currently living there will return, and areas like the Temple Mount currently controlled by Muslims will be returned to Israel so that the temple can be rebuilt? There are going to be differing opinions, but I would say there are two possibilities: a) He will lead the non-Israelite Jews back to the holy land b) The Jews will be exiled from the holy land again and he will lead them back. I can only imagine by what means the temple will be rebuilt, and what will happen to the Dome of the Rock. Remember that there’s no reason to believe that the messiah will come any time in the near future. [quote] Also, how long will this peace last? Since the Messiah will be human, he’ll grow old and die. Will there be a successor, or will the world return to the way it use to be? [QUOTE] I’d guess it is forever. The Messiah is more of an initiator than someone with godly powers. I think the messianic age is “the time after the messiah comes”, which isn’t limited to his lifetime. I may be wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/25 "2003-08-07T03:35:13Z")
what about the Messiah ben-Joseph & Messiah ben-David concepts? also, what about the theorized connections of the heavenly Melchizedek & the Archangel Michael & Metatron/Enoch to Messiah? finally, how about the possibility advanced by Jewish scholar Pinchas Lapide that although Jesus was NOT the Messiah, he could come back (either in his risen self, which Lapide believed he had in common with Elijah, or in gilgul) to become the Messiah? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/26 "2003-08-08T14:00:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\*Here’s my question: is the coming of the Messiah truly a _fundamental_ tenet of Judaism, or is it a later interpretation/concept that could be right or wrong? IOW, if at the end of the Universe there had been no Messiah, would it mean that Jews had gotten the whole message wrong, or simply that a bit of later interpretation turned out to be skewed? > > Sua \*\* **Sua** , My apologies for the delay. The coming of the messiah is a fundemental belief in Judaism. Maimonides lists it among the 13 fundamental beliefs of the religion. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/27 "2003-08-08T18:01:58Z")
Many non-Orthodox Jews understand the Messiah figuratively–that one of these days, people will realize that God wants us to be nice to each other, and when that happens, the time of the Messiah will have come. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/28 "2003-08-08T18:10:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriarTed \* > \*\*what about the Messiah ben-Joseph & Messiah ben-David concepts? \*\* What about them? These are concepts that are brought up in the Talmud. However, the discussions about them are somewhat less than clear and aside from a few specific references, not much is said about them. When messianic topics are discussed, they usually refer to the Davidic messiah. [quote] \*\* also, what about the theorized connections of the heavenly Melchizedek & the Archangel Michael & Metatron/Enoch to Messiah? [/qutoe]\*\* Well, aside from the fact that the messiah will be a descendant of Enoch (as all people on earth are), I fail to see a connection (from a Jewish POV). Likewise, I’m not familar with the Malchitzedek/Michael connection you’re referring to. > [@](#): > > \*\* > finally, how about the possibility advanced by Jewish scholar Pinchas Lapide that although Jesus was NOT the Messiah, he could come back (either in his risen self, which Lapide believed he had in common with Elijah, or in gilgul) to become the Messiah? \*\* I’m not familiar with this person, but his points fail on several levels: (1) The messiah will not rise from the dead. Indeed, while Jews do have a belief in a ressurection of the dead, this will not occur until after the messiah arrives. So Jesus (assuming he otherwise meets the criteria) could not arise from the dead to be the messiah. (2) _Gilgul_ (reincarnation) is not a fundamental Jewish belief. One can dismiss it and still be a Jew in good standing. And even if Jesus did come back as another person to be the messiah, well then it would be on account of his being this new person, and not Jesus. (3) Elijah did not die. He ascended to heaven physically. And in any event, all Jewish commentators agree (based on Malachi 3) that Elijah is _not_ the messiah, but will herald the messianic era. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270/29 "2003-08-08T18:29:51Z")
My own interpretation, as a Conservative Jew: Hebrew is a gender-positive language; every noun has a gender, and every verb has a masculine and feminine form. There is no equivalent to the English gender-neutral “it;” everything is a “he” or a “she.” (Two quick examples: _Yom Tov_, lit. “good day,” meaning a festival. The word for “day” takes the masculine _tov_. Cf. _Shanah tovah_, lit “Have a good year,” the traditional New Year greeting. The word for “year” takes the feminine _tovah_.) Gender-positive languages have issues with groups of collective gender and of unknown gender. In my experience (mainly with Hebrew, and with other people studying Latin), gender-positive languages use the masculine gender for a mixed group and when the gender is unknown. Accordingly, I interpret the prophesies’ use of masculine gender for the messiah as proper grammar, for we don’t know _who_ will be the messiah until the time comes. Thus, I allow the possibility that the messiah will be _ **female** _. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-messiah-the-jews-are-waiting-for/193270.md?page=1)