# The Miami Dolphins Bullying Kerfuffle (MDBK) - we don't have a thread on this?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415 "2013-11-08T11:54:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/21 "2013-11-08T15:34:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Bill Parcells made some good comments. I agree with him that we don’t know enough yet about the situation. I’m not sure why this couldn’t be worked out within the team.
I find Bill Parcells to be full of shit.
Any claim that abusive behavior is okay because it is what normally goes on is not a valid argument. The fact is that there is no reason at all for football players not to behave like professionals that draw million dollar paychecks.
To explain further: twenty five years ago or so, the idea of a “lady reporter” in a locker room was very controversial. “It’s just not right!” said the Bill Parcells types of that era. “But men walk around naked in a flaunting and gratuitous manner – they HAVE to because they’re manly!” “Dave Kingman sending a dead rat to a female reporter who wanted in the locker room was just the sort of horsing around that athletes do – she should lighten up!”
Well, that was all bullshit then, and excuses for abusive and probably legally actionable behavior is bullshit today. Just like allowing women in locker rooms has meant literally nothing in terms of an athlete’s ability to play his sport and do his job, there would be literally no impact at all for teams and the NFL to start seriously punishing abusive behavior in the locker room.
To believe the words and experience of past and current athletes that things really aren’t that bad, or that Martin is the problem, is like believing an undisciplined eight year old who claims that he’s allowed to eat all the candy he wants and never has to eat any vegetables. Just because someone has lots of experience being a childish or abusive brat doesn’t mean you have to take anything they say seriously in the least.
The NFL really is out of control. We have an owner defending an obviously racist team name, we have players and coaches coming out of the woodwork to defend a despicable excuse for a human being (Incognito), and we can all bet dollars to doughnuts that all this unconscionable, disgusting behavior is going to be forgotten in a few weeks time after basically nothing is really done about it.
I’m a big fan of football, and I’m sickened by this whole thing.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/22 "2013-11-08T15:40:29Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> A lot of people seem to be excusing the harassment as part of the culture of the NFL, but other workplaces and societies have grown up. So why can’t the NFL?
I don’t mean to be excusing it - at all. It sounds like Martin was treated completely inappropriately and likely has cause for legal action.
My point is that this frenzy seems to be based on the disconnect between what’s Standard vs. this type of specialized environment. _I_ clearly don’t know what is different and therefore acceptable - but I am leery of a simple application of “normal” standards.
As I attempted to think out loud about above, it seems like the rules of love and sex _may_ be different on _some_ movie sets. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone told me that an Operating Room is its own, specialized environment that had its own idiosyncrasies that don’t align with “normal” standards.
It will interesting to see how the official investigation parses this - will it discuss the events relative to “standard” work rules, or will it try to factor in the Insider/Specialized culture of a locker room?
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/23 "2013-11-08T15:47:04Z")
There is no justification for abuse in a locker room, no matter how “specialized” a location it is. That would be like saying that segregation is okay in the South, because the South is “different.”
Wanton abuse is not acceptable in any job, whether it’s as a football player, corporate attorney, priest, cop, teacher, or ditch-digger.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/24 "2013-11-08T15:54:47Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> > [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
> >
> > A lot of people seem to be excusing the harassment as part of the culture of the NFL, but other workplaces and societies have grown up. So why can’t the NFL?
>
> I don’t mean to be excusing it - at all. It sounds like Martin was treated completely inappropriately and likely has cause for legal action.
>
> My point is that this frenzy seems to be based on the disconnect between what’s Standard vs. this type of specialized environment. _I_ clearly don’t know what is different and therefore acceptable - but I am leery of a simple application of “normal” standards.
I’ve never been in the military, but I have seen basic training portrayed in films like Full Metal Jacket as _really_ abusive. But from what I’ve read on the SDMB and elsewhere, the military has changed its culture so that such physical abuse is no longer permitted. So if the military can adapt when the stakes are much higher, why can’t the NFL?
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/25 "2013-11-08T15:59:55Z")
By the way, how is it in other sports, like soccer, rugby or ice hockey? They are also macho, testosterone-fueled sports, but do they have hazing and harassment?
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/26 "2013-11-08T16:02:39Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> I’ve never been in the military, but I have seen basic training portrayed in films like Full Metal Jacket as _really_ abusive. But from what I’ve read on the SDMB and elsewhere, the military has changed its culture so that such physical abuse is no longer permitted. So if the military can adapt when the stakes are much higher, why can’t the NFL?
Yes, I have heard that, too, but have no first-hand knowledge. I have also heard that reports of sexual misconduct are on the rise.
**Ravenman** - I agree. But what is abusive? One of the ESPN reports I watched showed a Super Bowl winning offensive line - can’t remember which team. It was a clip from a retrospective on them - they were mixed race, and seemed like total Football Bros - slagging on each other, using the N-word on each other across races.
From the outside, it sounded nice for them, but totally off as a normal standard. Now, if one of them changed their mind - something changed the dynamic - they clearly had data that pointed to an abusive environment. But the film evidence could be used to show that, for a long time, it was _not_ considered abusive by those guys…
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/27 "2013-11-08T16:07:05Z")
I find that particularly unpersuasive. Are they the same guys? Is the situation the same? If someone else is willing to put up a false grin in the face of insults, that doesn’t mean I must do the same nor does allowing someone to refer to me by a slur in one instance give someone else carte blanche to speak to me that way across the board.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/28 "2013-11-08T16:08:38Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> I agree with him that we don’t know enough yet about the situation.
He’s wrong. Parcells is a great coach, but he’s also a dick and his attitude is pretty typical here. I don’t know what it’s like to play in the NFL, but I do know that the kind of attitude he shows there allows this kind of thing to happen - and that’s true whether it’s on a football team or in any other setting.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not sure why this couldn’t be worked out within the team.
Well, let’s see: according to at least one player, the Dolphins staff was well aware of what was happening and specifically wanted Incognito and others to toughen Martin up, and Incognito was a popular guy in a team leadership position and Martin was an ill-liked young player with a reputation for being a wuss. Does that help you think of a reason?
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/29 "2013-11-08T16:09:14Z")
You have to fit in to any organization or group. Thats even more true in sports or the military. Guys that don’t fit in don’t last long.
The Miami locker room seems more toxic than most. Martin would have probably done better on another team. I just don’t know enough to say. He’s a Ivy league guy trying to fit in with guys from a much different background.
Richie Incognito apparently has a bad reputation going back to college. A guy like that can poison the entire team.
> **[Dungy on Incognito's reputation: Not 'what we wanted in our locker room'](https://www.today.com/news/dungy-incognitos-rep-not-what-we-wanted-our-locker-room-8C11562019)**
>
> Head coach Tony Dungy and the Indianapolis Colts had the chance to draft Richie Incognito in 2005, but passed, questioning the offensive lineman's character.“I don’t know Richie Incognito personally,’’ Dungy, now an analyst for NBC's "Football Night...
> [@](#):
>
> Head coach Tony Dungy and the Indianapolis Colts had the chance to draft Richie Incognito in 2005, but passed, questioning the offensive lineman’s character.
>
> “I don’t know Richie Incognito personally,’’ Dungy, now an analyst for NBC’s “Football Night in America,” told Savannah Guthrie on TODAY Friday. “I know the reports that we had, the difficulties that he had in college, (and) some of the incidents that he had on the field and off the field. We just didn’t want to bring that into our locker room. That’s not to say he’s the guilty party in this. I don’t know everything that happened there, but I do know the reputation that Richie Incognito had, and it wasn’t what we wanted in our locker room.”
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/30 "2013-11-08T16:15:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> You have to fit in to any organization or group. Thats even more true in sports or the military. Guys that don’t fit in don’t last long.
In part that’s because if you don’t fit in, bullies will make your life hell until you quit. Every organization does have its own culture, but I think most of us can tell the difference between friendly teasing and harassment that is intended to target them personally. Martin may not be a great player or a fun teammate, but that doesn’t justify this.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/31 "2013-11-08T16:17:18Z")
A lot of NFL players are being quoted in the media as supporting Incognito. So if everyone is OK with what he did, surely he should be signed by another team soon, right?
Martin, on the other hand, I could easily see him not returning to football. Perhaps he’ll apply to law school. I think that’s one difference. Incognito’s entire life has centered around football, whereas Martin really was a student-athlete and actually learned stuff in college.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/32 "2013-11-08T16:19:52Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> A lot of NFL players are being quoted in the media as supporting Incognito. So if everyone is OK with what he did, surely he should be signed by another team soon, right?
He’s not going anywhere right now. He is still on the Dolphins roster and has been suspended indefinitely. The team supposedly doesn’t want him back, but they’re not necessarily going to cut him if for no other reason than not wanting a problem with the players union.
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### Author:  [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/33 "2013-11-08T16:22:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> When Ty Cobb says you’re acting inappropriately, that should be a serious warning sign. It’s like Keith Richards telling you he’s concerned about your drug use.
Seriously. Or like when Def Leppard fired Pete Willis _for drinking too much_.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/34 "2013-11-08T16:23:32Z")
I agree. Martin would really catch hell on any team now. He’s going to be seen as soft and a whiner by other players. Thats a dangerous situation on the football field. Guys may not have your back in a game. Guys protect each other on the field. You can get hurt quick.
Is it fair? No. But neither is life. Martin is smart and can be very successful in an office wearing a suit & tie.
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/35 "2013-11-08T16:26:42Z")
Then the problem is with the other players. Expecting to be treated with respect is not being soft nor is alerting people to the conditions he faced being a whiner.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/36 "2013-11-08T16:50:07Z")
Interesting write-up by a former player who was “The Weirdo” on his team, the NY Jets:
> **[Former NFL Player on Bullying: I Was the Team 'Weirdo' on New York Jets](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1840958-an-insiders-account-of-bullying-hazing-and-overall-culture-of-the-nfl?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial&hpt=hp_c2)**
>
> I’ve written numerous insider-perspective articles regarding my time in the NFL since becoming a proud member of the Bleacher Report family, but perhaps none has left me ...
> [@](#):
>
> Though he [Incognito] often crosses the line and can be seen as a raging madman (explicit language), he actually better represents what an NFL general manager wants than Martin does from a character standpoint. Intense, violent, brutal and aggressive are assets for an offensive lineman—whereas kind, friendly, passive and peaceful are not.
>
> This is just the nature of the game.
>
> If these two personality types were working in a law firm, Incognito would likely feel like the outsider struggling to relate to his coworkers, while Martin would presumably be more at home than ever. In this hypothetical environment, Incognito would be the brunt of constant ridicule and made to feel both primitive and inadequate.
>
> Yet what’s interesting in that scenario is that just like Martin and myself in the NFL, Incognito would have authored his own hellish nightmare as the awkward and disrespected outsider.
>
> With that said, I do not condone nor defend anything Incognito is alleged to have said or done to Martin. But context is important in this case, and perhaps people are starting to comprehend to some degree why NFL players, especially Dolphins teammates, are predominantly in support of the accused rather than the accuser.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/37 "2013-11-08T16:51:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> I agree. Martin would really catch hell on any team now.
He is probably not going to another team. He’s a second-year player under contract with the Dolphins for two more years. I know NFL contracts are not guaranteed, but it seems like he’ll either be back with them or nowhere.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/38 "2013-11-08T16:52:15Z")
Oh - and a quote from **Ricky Williams** , the Heisman-winning running back who left the NFL over social anxiety issues and cannabis use (he famously did interviews with his helmet on):
> [@](#):
>
> How is bullying something that’s even mentioned regarding the NFL? Because that’s kind of what we’re taught to do—at least on the field—is to bully the guy across from us so we can win the football game.
>
> It’s kind of what we’re subjected to on a day-to-day basis that most people will never be able to understand… What we’re required to do physically, mentally and emotionally for the course of a season is astronomical—it’s amazing. And I’m not saying that it’s bad. I’m saying it just really speaks to what it takes to be a professional football player. **And to me there’s no room to play the victim or to be bullied or to even have that discussion when it comes to the NFL. If you’re having that discussion, it just means that maybe you don’t belong in the NFL.** [emphasis mine]
So, to Ricky Williams, the “specialized case” of an NFL locker room is so different that trying to approach it with a Bully/Victim framework simply makes no sense. He doesn’t come across as some macho dude saying he’d Man Up - he sounds like a guy who has been The Weirdo and has accepted the reality of NFL culture.
I am _not_ saying it’s a good thing - again, Martin was harassed and should pursue whatever course he chooses. But clearly trying to simply apply our “normal standards” doesn’t seem to work, either…
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### Author:  [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/39 "2013-11-08T16:52:39Z")
Then what were the Dolphins doing taking Martin on in the first place if he didn’t have the skill set they require?
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-miami-dolphins-bullying-kerfuffle-mdbk-we-dont-have-a-thread-on-this/673415/40 "2013-11-08T17:03:43Z")
That bleacher report article is the best I’ve seen on life in a sports team. It really is a completely foreign world with its own rules and expectations. Even for someone that played high school and college sports the pro leagues are much different.
> [@](#):
>
> Underneath the lights, behind the glamour and just below the fame of professional football exists a culture and environment so harsh and so unforgiving that it could never hold up to the political correctness of a normal workplace scenario.
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