# The mighty air traffic controllers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 26, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440 "2019-01-26T12:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/1 "2019-01-26T12:42:23Z")
I predict the next shut down will last until the air traffic controllers stop showing up for work. The news and the knee jerk reaction is Trump caved, but fails to explain why he had to. Trump had to re-open the government based on delayed flights, which would only get worse. So the Government is back in business for a while. Next time, the POTUS will wise up and exempt air traffic controllers from being part of a government shut down via executive order. If Democrats don’t take the concessions Trump made, he can declare a national emergency, so the folks that are okay with not slowing down illegal immigration the problems it brings celebration will be short. His wall/border security will cost less than 1% of what the government spends. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/2 "2019-01-26T12:51:08Z")
You did it AGAIN. Opposition to the moronic wall is NOT opposition to reduce undocumented immigration. It’s the OPPOSITE of that. Throwing money uselessly at something idiotic means that money can be used for something useful. You must know this by now. I do agree that La Guardia and Atlanta airports slowing down service (and moving close to full shutdown) was the straw that broke the camel’s back for constituents of Republican senators. I predicted here the shutdown would end very soon the moment I heard La Guardia wasn’t allowing incoming flights to land, and I was right. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/3 "2019-01-26T12:53:57Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > You did it AGAIN. Opposition to the moronic wall is NOT opposition to reduce undocumented immigration. It’s the OPPOSITE of that. Throwing money uselessly at something idiotic means that money canbevused for something useful. You must know this by now. > > I do agree that La Guardia and Atlanta airports slowing down service (and moving close to full shutdown) was the straw that broke the camel’s back for constituents of Republican senators. I predicted here the shutdown would end very soon the moment I heard La Guardia wasn’t allowing incoming flights to land, and I was right. Some people are okay with the 100,000+ USA citizens being victims of crime at the hands of illegal immigration, are you? How is that idiotic? It’s a fact! WRONG, better border security, which includes a higher wall is a need. We agree it was the airports that put a halt to the government shutdowns. Trump will wise up the next time an exempt the air traffic controllers. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/4 "2019-01-26T12:58:28Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Some people are okay with 100,000+ USA being victims of crime at the hands of illegal immigrations, are you? How is that idiotic. Its a fact. > > WRONG, better border security, which includes a higher wall is a need. > > We agree it was the airports that put a halt to the government shut downs. Trump will wise up the next time. Another fact you get wrong, AGAIN AND AGAIN. Immigrants (including undocumented ones) commit crimes at LOWER rates than US-born citizens. By your logic — obviously, it’s more complex than this, but by YOUR logic — we should open the borders to any and all immigrants, to reduce crime rates. To reduce them faster, in addition US-born citizens should commit suicide or move out of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/5 "2019-01-26T13:00:58Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Next time, the POTUS will wise up and exempt air traffic controllers from being part of a government shut down via executive order. An executive order cannot pay air traffic controllers (or anyone else) if their salaries are not in an appropriation by Congress. Any federal employee who got paid during the shutdown (like the military, or Congress) was already authorized by Congress, who holds the power of the purse. The president can’t pay anyone without their permission. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/6 "2019-01-26T13:01:14Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Some people are okay with the 100,000+ USA citizens being victims of crime at the hands of illegal immigration, are you? That’s if the smallpox and leprosy doesn’t get them first. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/7 "2019-01-26T13:01:55Z")
Sheesh! The people he’s trying to stop are NOT illegal immigrants, these caravans are full of people coming as refugees. Which is 100% LEGAL. Read that again, until it sinks in, its LEGAL to be a refugee. How can you still be this misinformed? Sheesh! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/8 "2019-01-26T13:13:05Z")
Asylum seekers, not refugees. People seeking refuge go through another process altogether. But not-white is not-white, and Trump doesn’t want anyone not-white coming into the US. There’s no legitimate reason for his opposition, so he makes stuff up. I feel I’m free to mock Trump’s lies regardless of the specifics of which lie he tells about which group because it’s all bullshit and it all comes from the same asshole. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/9 "2019-01-26T13:18:51Z")
I think OP makes an important point. Congress needs to ensure that POTUS cannot bypass spending authorizations next time he decides to throw a tantrum and hold the country hostage. > [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Some people are okay with the 100,000+ USA citizens being victims of crime at the hands of illegal immigration, are you? How is that idiotic? It’s a fact! > … > Trump will wise up the next time an exempt the air traffic controllers. “It’s a fact”? Even alternate facts need alternate cites to be taken seriously. Exempting ATCs from Congressional spending authority would be illegal and unconstitutional. @ **Ancient Erudite** — Tell us how you feel about Presidents breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/10 "2019-01-26T13:25:03Z")
[QUOTE=Ancient Erudite;21453098… The news and the knee jerk reaction is Trump caved, but fails to explain why he had to. …[/QUOTE] Trump didn’t “have to” fucking anything. Trump didn’t have to shut it down in the first fucking place, He used 800,000 of the USA citzens and our economy as hostages for a month and for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/11 "2019-01-26T13:28:07Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I think OP makes an important point. Congress needs to ensure that POTUS cannot bypass spending authorizations next time he decides to throw a tantrum and hold the country hostage. > > “It’s a fact”? Even alternate facts need alternate cites to be taken seriously. > > Exempting ATCs from Congressional spending authority would be illegal and unconstitutional. @ **Ancient Erudite** — Tell us how you feel about Presidents breaking the law. ILIARPDI (It’s Legal If A Republican President Does It) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/12 "2019-01-26T13:53:14Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Some people are okay with the 100,000+ USA citizens being victims of crime at the hands of illegal immigration, are you? How is that idiotic? It’s a fact! [From here.](https://www.cato.org/blog/murder-mollie-tibbetts-illegal-immigrant-crime-facts) > [@](#): > > I recently received new data from Texas on the number of convictions by crime and immigration status as well as the number of individuals convicted (they are slightly different). This Texas data is the best data that we have on the commission of murder by immigrants by specific legal status. In 2016, **746 native-born Texans** , 32 illegal immigrants, and 28 legal immigrants were convicted of homicide. In that year, the homicide conviction rate for native-born Americans is Texas was 3.2 per 100,000 natives while it was 1.8 per 100,000 illegal immigrants and 0.9 per 100,000 legal immigrants (Figure 1). **The illegal immigrant conviction rate for homicide was 44 percent below that of native-born Americans in 2016 in Texas.** Where are the tears for the 746 victims of American citizens? Are they just pawns in your quest for political points? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/13 "2019-01-26T14:35:02Z")
If Trump told his supporters that he had a magic rock that keeps bad immigrants away, and he offered to sell it to the US government for $5.7B, a bunch of them would be here castigating naysayers for hating America. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/14 "2019-01-26T14:36:19Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Next time, the POTUS will wise up and exempt air traffic controllers from being part of a government shut down **via executive order**. > > If Democrats don’t take the concessions Trump made, he can **declare a national emergency** Instead of arguing about whether or not Trump _should_ block illegal immigrants, or exactly how many cross, or whether a wall would be worth the money, or how many crimes they commit…let’s focus on these two statements. These are both clear factual comments, and Erudite might actually listen or engage in debate about these. First, the air traffic controllers _were_ exempt from the shutdown, they just were not getting paid. That is, they still were required to work, so an executive order from Trump doesn’t change that. They just were not being compensated to go to work, and eventually, since most Americans live paycheck to paycheck, eventually enough controllers will run out of money for gas/get their car repoed/can’t pay the babysitter and stop reporting to work. Apparently, that only takes about a month to start happening. **Erudite, and others : do you believe Trump can order the Air Traffic controllers be paid? If so, by what mechanism?** Second, regarding the “national emergency” card: this national emergency will be challenged in court. Regardless of all the inefficiencies of having the military do the work of building the wall, or all the logistics difficulties, historically there’s a [precedent here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_steel_strike). Truman couldn’t order the steel mills seized without the consent of Congress, either. Now, Trump has gotten to put a couple of conservative Justices in. And I don’t know the exact legal arguments that will be made. But, in general, this “national emergency” power is, as I understand it, intended for situations where Congress does not have time to act. Congress has known about the illegal immigration problem for decades and has simply chosen not to act in a meaningful or effective way. There has been plenty of time, Congress just doesn’t want to enact the government policies that Trump wants. I could see the Supreme Court arguing that this means that Trump has exceeded his power in declaring a national emergency. But we’ll see. What do you think, Erudite? Why do you think Trump didn’t already play this card? I am assuming the White House attorneys have told him they don’t think the odds are good. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/15 "2019-01-26T14:40:38Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I predict the next shut down will last until the air traffic controllers stop showing up for work. The news and the knee jerk reaction is Trump caved, but fails to explain why he had to. > > Trump had to re-open the government based on delayed flights, which would only get worse. So the Government is back in business for a while. > > Next time, the POTUS will wise up and exempt air traffic controllers from being part of a government shut down via executive order. > > If Democrats don’t take the concessions Trump made, he can declare a national emergency, so the folks that are okay with not slowing down illegal immigration the problems it brings celebration will be short. His wall/border security will cost less than 1% of what the government spends. Why do you hate democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/16 "2019-01-26T14:47:30Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Another fact you get wrong, AGAIN AND AGAIN. Immigrants (including undocumented ones) commit crimes at LOWER rates than US-born citizens. By your logic — obviously, it’s more complex than this, but by YOUR logic — we should open the borders to any and all immigrants, to reduce crime rates. > > To reduce them faster, in addition US-born citizens should commit suicide or move out of the country. I’m not going to use data to prove you are wrong, rather let’s use the data that shows it happens. Illegals here hurting USA citizens. You can not win that argument. We know it happens, and the numbers are over 100,000. The question remains, what should the USA government do about it? ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/17 "2019-01-26T14:50:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > An executive order cannot pay air traffic controllers (or anyone else) if their salaries are not in an appropriation by Congress. Any federal employee who got paid during the shutdown (like the military, or Congress) was already authorized by Congress, who holds the power of the purse. The president can’t pay anyone without their permission. Didn’t Reagan order the air traffic controllers back to work via executive order? I think so. Are you 100% sure Trump can’t order them back to work with pay? Let the Democrats say no to that if they have the authority to override an executive order. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/18 "2019-01-26T14:53:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why do you hate democracy? Who says that? Judging by my 1-month stay here, many are up in arms about an elected President. Democracy is the way to go. I like our system the way it is. The question Ravenman is should the USA government tolerate illegal alines, and ignore the problems they create, which includes crime against our own citizens. Take note I am 100% for work visa and legal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/19 "2019-01-26T14:59:56Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Instead of arguing about whether or not Trump _should_ block illegal immigrants, or exactly how many cross, or whether a wall would be worth the money, or how many crimes they commit…let’s focus on these two statements. > > These are both clear factual comments, and Erudite might actually listen or engage in debate about these. > > First, the air traffic controllers _were_ exempt from the shutdown, they just were not getting paid. That is, they still were required to work, so an executive order from Trump doesn’t change that. They just were not being compensated to go to work, and eventually, since most Americans live paycheck to paycheck, eventually enough controllers will run out of money for gas/get their car repoed/can’t pay the babysitter and stop reporting to work. Apparently, that only takes about a month to start happening. > > **Erudite, and others : do you believe Trump can order the Air Traffic controllers be paid? If so, by what mechanism?** > > Second, regarding the “national emergency” card: this national emergency will be challenged in court. Regardless of all the inefficiencies of having the military do the work of building the wall, or all the logistics difficulties, historically there’s a [precedent here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_steel_strike). Truman couldn’t order the steel mills seized without the consent of Congress, either. > > Now, Trump has gotten to put a couple of conservative Justices in. And I don’t know the exact legal arguments that will be made. But, in general, this “national emergency” power is, as I understand it, intended for situations where Congress does not have time to act. > > Congress has known about the illegal immigration problem for decades and has simply chosen not to act in a meaningful or effective way. There has been plenty of time, Congress just doesn’t want to enact the government policies that Trump wants. > > I could see the Supreme Court arguing that this means that Trump has exceeded his power in declaring a national emergency. But we’ll see. What do you think, Erudite? Why do you think Trump didn’t already play this card? I am assuming the White House attorneys have told him they don’t think the odds are good. Thank you. 1 ) Yes, I do believe Trump can executive order the air traffic controllers to be paid. I doubt Democrats would try to block that. They are a necessity. If he can’t do that, please show me the limitations of the law on executive orders. Trump has already ordered back pay. 2 ) Let the courts challenge it the national emergency. That will take years, and the supreme court justices would likely side with Trump anyway. What’s a national emergency? Oh, the 100,000+ USA citizens victimized by illegal aliens from a different government, the drugs, the gun trafficking, they create. The human rights issues they exploit. I suppose what is needed is to point the camera on the problem. Jaws will drop once human faces are attached to them. Such news won’t be on CNN. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/20 "2019-01-26T15:03:39Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Illegals here hurting USA citizens. You can not win that argument. We know it happens, and the numbers are over 100,000. The question remains, what should the USA government do about it? First - Trump still has a billion dollars in his border security budget. He can spend that. If this is an emergency, why didn’t he use that before digging into our pockets? Second - we can increase security at ports of entry, where most of the “bad people” are getting in. We can have more of them, and we can pay them more. If this is an emergency, why did Trump just cut off funding for 2 weeks? Third - we can improve the visa application process and speed up wait times for immigration courts, so that people don’t become illegal just by waiting in line. Those are the 3 best ways because they address the problem where the problem is, with money already allocated. There is no need to chisel 5 billion out of US taxpayers for the wrong solution, in the wrong place, that the American people do not want. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440.md?page=2)