# The mighty air traffic controllers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 26, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440 "2019-01-26T12:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/21 "2019-01-26T15:05:58Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Yes, I do believe Trump can executive order the air traffic controllers to be paid. I doubt Democrats would try to block that. They are a necessity. If he can’t do that, please show me the limitations of the law on executive orders. You’re the one suggesting that it’s within his executive powers, how about you show us what the executive authority is? It’s not our job to do your homework for whatever random thing you decide to believe. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/22 "2019-01-26T15:09:53Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I’m not going to use data to prove you are wrong, rather let’s use the data that shows it happens. > > Illegals here hurting USA citizens. You can not win that argument. We know it happens, and the numbers are over 100,000. The question remains, what should the USA government do about it? I’m not going to use data to prove you are wrong, rather let’s use the data that shows it happens. Left-handed people are here hurting USA citizens. You can not win that argument. We know it happens, and the numbers are over 100,000. The question remains, what should the USA government do about it? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/23 "2019-01-26T15:14:38Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Who says that? . I do. When the votes and the people aren’t on your side, you choose authoritarianism. Why? Don’t you like the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/24 "2019-01-26T15:14:40Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Thank you. > > 1 ) Yes, I do believe Trump can executive order the air traffic controllers to be paid. I doubt Democrats would try to block that. They are a necessity. If he can’t do that, please show me the limitations of the law on executive orders. Trump has already ordered back pay. > > 2 ) Let the courts challenge it the national emergency. That will take years, and the supreme court justices would likely side with Trump anyway. What’s a national emergency? Oh, the 100,000+ USA citizens victimized by illegal aliens from a different government, the drugs, the gun trafficking, they create. The human rights issues they exploit. I suppose what is needed is to point the camera on the problem. Jaws will drop once human faces are attached to them. Such news won’t be on CNN. This is incredible. 1. You’ve already been told repeatedly that Mexicans commit fewer crimes than actual Americans. 2. The drugs! Who the fuck do you think is buying the drugs? Americans! The Mexicans aren’t just showing up to shove drugs down our throats. If Americans stopped buying drugs, the problem would solve itself. 3. Gun trafficking. Seriously? You genuinely believe guns are being trafficked FROM Mexico TO the United States? When, in fact, it is the exact opposite? News flash: GUNS MOVE SOUTH, NOT NORTH. 4. Are you really so ignorant of history that you can’t understand what you are doing here? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/25 "2019-01-26T15:26:28Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > 1 ) Yes, I do believe Trump can executive order the air traffic controllers to be paid. I doubt Democrats would try to block that. They are a necessity. If he can’t do that, please show me the limitations of the law on executive orders. Trump has already ordered back pay. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how our government works. Congress, particularly the House of Representatives, holds the government’s purse strings. It is entirely up to them how money is spent by the government. Basically congress tells the executive how to spend money. The president (executive) does not decide whether to build an aircraft carrier or a thousand tanks. Congress tells the president to build one or the other. So no, the president can not unilaterally decide to pay ATC. There is a caveat to this which comes with the president’s emergency powers. That has not been tested yet though and, surprisingly, Trump did not go there. > [@](#): > > “All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.” > — U.S. Constitution, Article I, section 7, clause 1 > > “No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.” > — U.S. Constitution, Article I, section 9, clause 7 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/26 "2019-01-26T15:32:35Z")
If Mexicans were in fact trafficking guns into the United States, wouldn’t that be a good thing, anyway? After all, Republicans are constantly telling us that more guns are a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/27 "2019-01-26T15:42:27Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Thank you. > > 1 ) Yes, I do believe Trump can executive order the air traffic controllers to be paid. I doubt Democrats would try to block that. They are a necessity. If he can’t do that, please show me the limitations of the law on executive orders. Trump has already ordered back pay. As I understand, the back pay actually comes from an act of Congress. And, let’s suppose you are correct. Why didn’t he order the air traffic controllers be paid if Trump had the power to do so? And the TSA screeners? And every other portion of the government that Trump deems essential? If Trump didn’t personally know he had this power, why didn’t his staffers or white house lawyers or other Republicans remind him? Why did he cave to Pelosi instead of just hearing about the aircraft controller shortage, writing up the appropriate executive order, and continuing the shutdown? It would be a completely logical thing to do and quite efficient in the right hands, it would give the President de facto power to control which agencies of the government even operate. Close to dictatorial powers, even… ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/28 "2019-01-26T16:00:34Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Thank you. > > 1 ) Yes, I do believe Trump can executive order the air traffic controllers to be paid. I doubt Democrats would try to block that. They are a necessity. If he can’t do that, please show me the limitations of the law on executive orders. Trump has already ordered back pay. > > 2 ) Let the courts challenge it the national emergency. That will take years, and the supreme court justices would likely side with Trump anyway. What’s a national emergency? Oh, the 100,000+ USA citizens victimized by illegal aliens from a different government, the drugs, the gun trafficking, they create. The human rights issues they exploit. I suppose what is needed is to point the camera on the problem. Jaws will drop once human faces are attached to them. Such news won’t be on CNN. I know this is pointless, but are you ever going to provide a city for that 100k number you keep tossing around? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/29 "2019-01-26T16:26:11Z")
I wouldn’t be surprised if undocumented aliens are the _most_ law-abiding group of people in the U.S.! I know I’d get my faulty brake light repaired if being pulled over might mean deportation. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/30 "2019-01-26T16:38:38Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Didn’t Reagan order the air traffic controllers back to work via executive order? I think so. Are you 100% sure Trump can’t order them back to work with pay? Let the Democrats say no to that if they have the authority to override an executive order. I have to just laugh at this. What, particularly, are you referring to here with President Reagan? His use of the Taft-Hartley Act’s powers granted by Congress to the President to order striking workers back to work in certain situations? Because you do understand that that’s a completely different kettle of fish than ordering that air traffic controllers, who are working during a shutdown, be paid despite the lack of any appropriation or authority from Congress to do so, right? I thought “erudite” meant having great knowledge… ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/31 "2019-01-26T16:46:40Z")
This is seriously the beginning of the end for Trump. It’s soon going to start registering with the more sane of his supporters that he is a loser. And the kind of people who support Trump don’t like losers. There’s no question that Trump raised the white flag. He wanted $5.7 billion and got exactly $0. And he managed to piss off large numbers of people in the process. He has failed, surrendered, come out with hands up. Nancy Pelosi has won. He can’t hide from this, or talk his way out of it. His next attempt to build his wall (if there ever is one) will be more difficult, not less. It’s not going to happen. From now on, his only way is down. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/32 "2019-01-26T17:09:23Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I’m not going to use data to prove you are wrong, rather let’s use the data that shows it happens. > > Illegals here hurting USA citizens. You can not win that argument. We know it happens, and the numbers are over 100,000. The question remains, what should the USA government do about it? Throw paper towels at them. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/33 "2019-01-26T17:09:41Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > This is seriously the beginning of the end for Trump. It’s soon going to start registering with the more sane of his supporters that he is a loser. And the kind of people who support Trump don’t like losers. Trump had no one able to say no to him for two years (well, congress was able but not willing because party before country). The new congress was seated on January 3, 2019, and the House was taken by the Democrats. Almost immediately the BS is called and Trump loses bigly straight out of the gate. For Dems this is fall off a log easy. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/34 "2019-01-26T17:11:32Z")
It sounds like the emergency declaration is what he’ll try in three weeks. I kinow that is spotty, because I’m relying on what Trump said, but if that’s what he tries, let’s watch him fuck that up, too. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/35 "2019-01-26T17:17:30Z")
This thread is hilarious. It reminds of the sort of thing another poster (now banned) used to post. I won’t say their name because I don’t we’re supposed to mention banned posters, and to be clear I’m not saying Ancient Erudite is that former poster. But good god man, is there a point where you get tired of being factually wrong? Does consistently being factually wrong at some point make you question your information sources? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/36 "2019-01-26T17:17:36Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > I know this is pointless, but are you ever going to provide a city for that 100k number you keep tossing around? He’s already told us explicitly he’s not doing to use data in his argument. Data and facts are not part of his argument. He is using emotional thinking and words that are divorced from any reality, and do not have a factual basis. That’s all. running coach already provided factual evidence that immigrants (both illegal and legal) commit homicide in the state of Texas at LOWER rates than citizens. This fact does not matter to our poster here. He will ignore the facts and data if they do not agree with his emotional opinion. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/37 "2019-01-26T17:22:09Z")
I don’t know what caused Trump to cave. I imagine McConnell faced a rebellion in the Senate . The air traffic controllers and IRS sickouts were the straw plus also missing another paycheck for federal employees. McConnell isn’t an idiot and he knew that the optics were horrible and this would dominate the weekend news shows. Plus, the sickouts would only continue to snowball. So. I imagine McConnell told Trump the game was up and he no longer had the votes to hold the Republican caucus together. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/38 "2019-01-26T17:27:48Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > I don’t know what caused Trump to cave. I imagine McConnell faced a rebellion in the Senate . The air traffic controllers and IRS sickouts were the straw plus also missing another paycheck for federal employees. > > McConnell isn’t an idiot and he knew that the optics were horrible and this would dominate the weekend news shows. Plus, the sickouts would only continue to snowball. > > So. I imagine McConnell told Trump the game was up and he no longer had the votes to hold the Republican caucus together. IIRC some republicans had already started to break ranks and call for an end to the shutdown. At the end of the day the shutdown only went as long as it did because McConnell let it. McConnell only survives at the pleasure of his caucus. If he loses them he’s got nothing. So when it started to look like a possibility that McConnell would be over-ridden in the senate McConnell told Trump the gig was up and Trump folded. There is a real argument to be made it is McConnell is effectively running US policy and Trump is his puppet. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/39 "2019-01-26T17:32:53Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > running coach already provided factual evidence that immigrants (both illegal and legal) commit homicide in the state of Texas at LOWER rates than citizens. This fact does not matter to our poster here. He will ignore the facts and data if they do not agree with his emotional opinion. Actually, I do understand his argument. He’s saying that it doesn’t matter that illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than those who are here legally – the fact that they commit crimes, **at all** , is something that would have been prevented, had they not been here. And, thus, their illegal presence in the U.S. is leading to crimes (and victims) which would not have occurred if they had been successfully prevented from being here in the first place. I suspect that, in his mind, only if illegal immigrants committed zero crimes while in the U.S. would this not be an issue. So, IMO, that’s actually kind of a valid point. **However** , as has been shown repeatedly, the large majority of those who are here illegally actually entered the country legally, and then overstayed their legal stay. **No wall will prevent that.** ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/40 "2019-01-26T17:52:14Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Actually, I do understand his argument. He’s saying that it doesn’t matter that illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than those who are here legally – the fact that they commit crimes, **at all** , is something that would have been prevented, had they not been here. Perhaps. But here’s another view. Suppose a country has a monolithic population, all composed of group “A”. And they have a crime rate of “1”, or per year, per 100 people, 1 of those people is a victim of crime. So each year, if you live in that country, your chance of being a victim is 1%. Another group, “B”, sneaks in illegally, and equals the size of group A. Group B has a crime rate of “0.5”. So \*assuming \*criminals choose their victims at random, if you live in this country, your personal chance of being a victim has dropped to 0.75%. This is because some of your fellow citizens in group A are **choosing to target group B members as victims**. This is why, _if_ the illegals are bringing less crime per capita than U.S. citizens, that would mean they are lowering crime rate - by providing a pool of additional _crime victims_ to soak up the crimes that criminals commit. Now, one interesting bit is that following this logic, if you wanted to reduce crime, you’d import a bunch of foreigners who make great crime victims and who commit few crimes themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440.md?page=3)