# The mighty air traffic controllers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 26, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440 "2019-01-26T12:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/41 "2019-01-26T17:55:51Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Now, one interesting bit is that following this logic, if you wanted to reduce crime, you’d import a bunch of foreigners who make great crime victims and who commit few crimes themselves. Lower the crime _rate_, yes. Adding in additional people would increase the actual _number_ of crimes, unless the people in your “Group B” commit no crimes at all. Please note that I think Ancient Erudite is full of it on the topic, but the argument seems to be that one crime against a legal U.S. citizen, committed by an illegal immigrant, is one too many. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/42 "2019-01-26T17:59:37Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Lower the crime _rate_, yes. Adding in additional people would increase the actual _number_ of crimes, unless the people in your “Group B” commit no crimes at all. Correct. But the crime \*rate \*is what you care about. If 10 murders a year are committed, that matters a crapton more to you personally if you live in a town of 100 residents versus a city of 1 million people. If the city population doubles to 2 million people, but 15 murders a year are now committed, this is a substantial improvement in the personal chance that you will be a victim of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/43 "2019-01-26T18:24:48Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Correct. But the crime \*rate \*is what you care about. If 10 murders a year are committed, that matters a crapton more to you personally if you live in a town of 100 residents versus a city of 1 million people. If the city population doubles to 2 million people, but 15 murders a year are now committed, this is a substantial improvement in the personal chance that you will be a victim of murder. You are absolutely correct here. However… Your typical Trump/Wall fan is not very good at numeracy skills, and this talk of “rate” and percentages, and probability is quite, quite confusing for them. This talk of yours will make them think “huh, who does this smarty pants think he is? Some kind of elitist? I know I am right.” Again, data, logic, facts and analysis are simply beyond their ability to comprehend. You can put forth the best argument all day long, and they will simply look at you like a golden retriever when you hide his ball. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/44 "2019-01-26T18:25:23Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Correct. But the crime \*rate \*is what you care about. If 10 murders a year are committed, that matters a crapton more to you personally if you live in a town of 100 residents versus a city of 1 million people. If the city population doubles to 2 million people, but 15 murders a year are now committed, this is a substantial improvement in the personal chance that you will be a victim of murder. I get what **kenobi 65** is getting at. We might care about the crime rate, but the OP possibly doesn’t mind if more legal citizens are murdered, as long as none of those murders are by illegal citizens. Reading their argument in the kindest possible way they are presenting a sort of trolley problem. Along one track 50 US citizens are murdered in the US by US citizens. Along the other track 45 US citizens are murdered by US citizens, 1 US citizen is murdered by an illegal immigrant, and 5 illegal immigrants are murdered by US citizens. The OP prefers track one, not because fewer people are murdered in total\*, but because the specific person who was murdered by a illegal immigrant would have lived. \*which probably isn’t true anyway, as we haven’t included these non-immigrants being murdered in their own communities due to the perfect immigration prevention of “The Wall” ™. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/45 "2019-01-26T18:30:54Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I’m not going to use data to prove you are wrong, rather let’s use the data that shows it happens. > > Left-handed people are here hurting USA citizens. You can not win that argument. We know it happens, and the numbers are over 100,000. The question remains, what should the USA government do about it? (Allow me to repeat my earlier post. This is identical to a post of Ancient Erudite’s, except for the phrase “left-handed people.”) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/46 "2019-01-26T18:38:05Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > running coach already provided factual evidence that immigrants (both illegal and legal) commit homicide in the state of Texas at LOWER rates than citizens. This fact does not matter to our poster here. He will ignore the facts and data if they do not agree with his emotional opinion. I’m not authorized to speak for **Mr. Erudite** , but I assume he distinguishes between wholesome American crimes committed by god-fearing freedom-loving Americans and the putrid evil of wetbacks. Suppose you were a good ol’ Trump-loving American woman in Texas; what would you choose if the choices were (a) being raped by a good ol’ American boy who loves Trump just as much as you do and goes to an American church on Sunday, or (b) having your purse snatched by a brown-skinned Guatemalan who doesn’t even speak English. (I’m afraid to guess what the answer would be.) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/47 "2019-01-26T18:47:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’m not authorized to speak for **Mr. Erudite** , but I assume he distinguishes between wholesome American crimes committed by god-fearing freedom-loving Americans and the putrid evil of wetbacks. > > Suppose you were a good ol’ Trump-loving American woman in Texas; what would you choose if the choices were > (a) being raped by a good ol’ American boy who loves Trump just as much as you do and goes to an American church on Sunday, or > (b) having your purse snatched by a brown-skinned Guatemalan who doesn’t even speak English. > (I’m afraid to guess what the answer would be.) Well put! I was going to try to put together a post just like this, but you beat me to it. (Come to think of it, this affects me personally…nearly 40 years ago, I was directly devastated by an incident that _may_ have been perpetrated by a Guatemalan immigrant (not sure if he was ever ‘out-of-status’/undocumented/illegal)…and did that factoid matter to me? Not in the least. More info here – not that anyone would be interested: [https://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/03/nyregion/questions-still-linger-in-stouffer-s-fire.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/03/nyregion/questions-still-linger-in-stouffer-s-fire.html)) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/48 "2019-01-26T19:11:49Z")
This estimate states that the shutdown cost the country 6 billion dollars. Trump spent 6 billion in an effort to get 5 billion and he walks away with fucking zero. Genius. > **[The government shutdown cost the US economy at least $6B, a higher price than...](https://abcnews.go.com/Business/government-shutdown-cost-us-economy-6b-higher-price/story?id=60642761)** > > Trump wanted $5.7 billion for the border wall. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/49 "2019-01-26T19:59:54Z")
Y’know if we didn’t respond this thread would slowly drift to the bottom of the forum and we wouldn’t need to explain for the fiftieth fucking thread in a row why the wall is a bad idea to someone who is clearly utterly uninterested in hearing it. But yes, good on you for recognizing the one valuable lesson from this shutdown: government employees do important, valuable work, and attempts to fuck with them are performed at the peril of whoever is in office. This is why your side has been so fucking eager to kill unions. Because otherwise, the people you grind into the dirt will collectively say, “fuck this” and you’ll have to deal with that reality. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/50 "2019-01-26T20:08:47Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > If Democrats don’t take the concessions Trump made, he can declare a national emergency, so the folks that are okay with not slowing down illegal immigration the problems it brings celebration will be short. … And what “problems” does illegal immigration bring? Besides of course: cheaper produce, cleaner hotel rooms, and a more robust Social Security fund. They \*dont \*bring: more crime. The commit \*less crime \*than us born here citizens do. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/51 "2019-01-26T20:12:26Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Some people are okay with the 100,000+ USA citizens being victims of crime at the hands of illegal immigration, are you? How is that idiotic? It’s a fact! > … It’s not a fact. Got a real unbiased cite? > **[The Washington Post - Breaking news and latest headlines, U.S. news, world...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/)** > > Breaking news, live coverage, investigations, analysis, video, photos and opinions from The Washington Post. Subscribe for the latest on U.S. and international news, politics, business, technology, climate change, health and wellness, sports,... > **[Is Illegal Immigration Linked to More or Less Crime? - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/is-illegal-immigration-linked-to-more-or-less-crime/)** > > President Donald Trump said it’s “not true” that immigrants in the U.S. illegally are “safer than the people that live in the country,” providing several crime statistics he claimed represented the “toll of illegal immigration.” Sen. Bernie... \*Research Showing Lower Crime Rates Alex Nowrasteh, with the libertarian Cato Institute, analyzed the Texas data to make a comparison of immigrants in the country illegally and native-born residents. In a recent post he noted that in 2015 Texas police made 815,689 arrests of native-born Americans, 37,776 arrests of immigrants in the country illegally and 20,323 arrests of legal immigrants. Given the relative populations for each group, he wrote, “The arrest rate for illegal immigrants was 40 percent below that of native-born Americans.” In addition, he wrote, the homicide arrest rate for native-born Americans was “about 46 percent higher than the illegal immigrant homicide arrest rate.” Other research from the Cato Institute attempted to provide national estimates. A study published on June 4 used data from the Census Bureau’s American Community Survey for 2016 and applied statistical modeling to estimate the number of incarcerated immigrants in the country illegally. It filtered the data using characteristics correlated with being an immigrant in the country illegally, such as whether someone is a noncitizen but has not served in the military or received Social Security income. The research concluded: “Illegal immigrants are 47 percent less likely to be incarcerated than natives.” (And legal immigrants are even less likely to be in jail or prison.) - > **[Illegal Immigration Does Not Increase Violent Crime, 4 Studies Show](https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime)** > > Motivated by President Trump's rhetoric, social scientists set out to answer whether undocumented immigrants are more likely to break the law. \*Now, four academic studies show that illegal immigration does not increase the prevalence of violent crime or drug and alcohol problems. In the slew of research, motivated by Trump’s rhetoric, social scientists set out to answer this question: Are undocumented immigrants more likely to break the law? Michael Light, a criminologist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, looked at whether the soaring increase in illegal immigration over the last three decades caused a commensurate jump in violent crimes: murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault. “Increased undocumented immigration since 1990 has not increased violent crime over that same time period,” Light said in a phone interview. Those findings are published in the current edition of the peer-reviewed journal Criminology.\* ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/52 "2019-01-26T21:07:05Z")
Why isn’t the OP much more concerned about the shutdown and it’s very effective slackening of security at airports? The terrorists that actually HAVE attacked on US soil entered through airports. Every one. NOT the southern border. Stop pretending this is about your country’s security. (And just admit you don’t want more brown people!) ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/53 "2019-01-26T21:44:27Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > So, IMO, that’s actually kind of a valid point. **However** , as has been shown repeatedly, the large majority of those who are here illegally actually entered the country legally, and then overstayed their legal stay. **No wall will prevent that.** The trouble with your reply here is that, so far as I know, almost none of the crimes he’s complaining of are attributed to people who have overstayed visas. So you’re really not answering the issue. The way to answer the issue is this: the solution to your “problem” is to solve the underlying causes of “illegal immigration”. Building a “wall” does not do that, because people will still enter the country illegally. Further, solving a societal issue using an immoral or un-American method is not what we’re supposed to be about. Not that it matters; people who buy into the President’s “emergency” aren’t bothered with subtle, rational thoughts to begin with, in my experience. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/54 "2019-01-26T21:58:43Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The trouble with your reply here is that, so far as I know, almost none of the crimes he’s complaining of are attributed to people who have overstayed visas. So you’re really not answering the issue. This is an odd bit of precision to attempt to add to the claim “100,000 illegals have hurt Americans”. The number is of course entirely fabricated, and the OP refuses to provide any cites or support for it, so there’s nothing to keep us from assuming that they’re all H-2B overstayers working at Mar-a-Lago. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/55 "2019-01-26T22:31:28Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Didn’t Reagan order the air traffic controllers back to work via executive order? I think so. Are you 100% sure Trump can’t order them back to work with pay? Let the Democrats say no to that if they have the authority to override an executive order. I just couldn’t let this one pass, because it shows how a lack of facts can distort one’s entire understanding of the situation. Faact: Reagan’s air traffic controllers went on strike. There were a lot of things leading up to that, but for the sake of simplicity, let’s stick with the bare essential. Fact: Air traffic controllers **were not allowed** to go on strike. Specifically, they violated 5 U.S.C. (Supp. III 1956) 118p. Reagan ordered them to go back to work. Fact: About 90% of them refused to go back to work, and Reagan fired them. Which has nothing at all to do with with the present situation, so please keep it out of your future arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/56 "2019-01-26T22:38:39Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Why isn’t the OP much more concerned about the shutdown and it’s very effective slackening of security at airports? The terrorists that actually HAVE attacked on US soil entered through airports. Every one. NOT the southern border. > > Stop pretending this is about your country’s security. > > (And just admit you don’t want more brown people!) Heck, in the days after the attack, it was widely speculated that they’d come in over your _northern_ border. I think some people still believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/57 "2019-01-26T22:39:29Z")
Getting back to the spirit of the OP and ignoring all of the factual errors, even supposing continuing to hold the government hostage was a good idea and the the President had the power to start paying the air traffic controllers and TSA agents. It still wouldn’t have worked. the airline industry just happened to be the first of a whole host of government services that was reaching a breaking point. Fixing that might have given you maybe an extra week but the you would have Food stamps not going out. Meat and produce not being inspected. Border agents walking off the job, federal court cases not being heard, critial fianancial information not being delivered etc. etc. Pretty soon you are having to open up every office in the government piecemeal at which point why did you close it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/58 "2019-01-27T01:59:14Z")
> [@naita](#): > > The OP prefers track one, not because fewer people are murdered in total\*, but because the specific person who was murdered by a illegal immigrant would have lived. ‘An Albanian murdered a Serb. That Serb would still be alive if there were no more Albanians. When will the government finally protect Serbs from the Albanians?’ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/59 "2019-01-27T03:35:29Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Lower the crime _rate_, yes. Adding in additional people would increase the actual _number_ of crimes, unless the people in your “Group B” commit no crimes at all. > > Please note that I think Ancient Erudite is full of it on the topic, but the argument seems to be that one crime against a legal U.S. citizen, committed by an illegal immigrant, is one too many. Actually, a more law-abiding group can lower the crime rate for everyone. For example, by not tolerating criminal behavior by, eg, calling police when they see criminal behavior, forming neighborhood watches, providing eyewitness evidence when crimes occur, etc. Their behavior lowers the payoff to criminality and increases the risk of punishment. Immigrants with low crime rates\*\* reduce the amount of crimes of neighborhoods they move to.\*\* Basically, it’s not simply additive. Attitudes toward crime have a huge impact on crime rates, and there are actual studies showing that large numbers of immigrants make crime rates fall among non-immigrants. It’s been shown that in areas with large immigrant populations, the crime rate drops by more than enough to offset the number of additional crimes committed by immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/60 "2019-01-27T04:37:35Z")
Guys named Doug do crime, right? That’s why all the _Beware of Doug_ signs? Let’s get rid of Dougs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440.md?page=4)