# The mighty air traffic controllers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 26, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440 "2019-01-26T12:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/101 "2019-01-29T13:39:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Please take your links to Google Maps to the Pit. Yes, Google Maps once had nice features and maybe still does. But my clicks were ineffective, and I rapidly lost interest. > > I thought you might be speaking of [border stretches like this one.](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4186/34614235325_ff73218daa_b.jpg) But if your link points to an interestingly-shaped border I’m too stupid and or ignorant to get Google to show it to me. :o ? This is bizarrely hostile, Septimus. You feeling OK? The post names landmarks you can look up: Zapata, TX Falcon State Park Falcon Mesa and Siesta Shores, TX. FM 2098 Spur It’s all one area. Then look at the border in El Paso, Brownsville, Laredo, etc. Those can be Googled too. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/102 "2019-01-29T13:40:40Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > To conclude: > > 1. Illegal alien arrests count for fewer than 5% of all arrests in the State with the longest border with Mexico. This is not a crisis. > 2. Given 1.2 billion non-Texan Americans visited Texas in the same time period, it is reasonable to conclude that some of them committed crimes as well. > 3. To be arrested in the same minuscule numbers as illegal aliens, only .02% of all American visitors to Texas had to be arrested. Whether or not _this_ is reasonable is still left for debate. Additional data (even from other states) is welcome. > > You can relax now, Old Wise One. We got this. You’ve got nothing. Act like 5% means nothing. Not when the number is very high. 5% of a 1,000? Okay, that’s not a lot. We are not talking about 50 people here! If you’re okay with 100,000 USA victims or more, say its not a problem. I think you’re dead wrong, and lately, in the news, an illegal alien murdered a police officer. The USA lost more citizens to illegal aliens than some quick wars. You might want to note the murder rate in Mexico is even higher than it is here. The nation has lots of problems. What about the cost of drugs and the damage that does? Shouldn’t that count? And how about weapons trafficking for the people concerned with that? Or Human rights and human trafficking when illegal alien women and children are victims? It is not like they can call the cops. The cost of 5.9 billion for border security is cheaper than the price to administer Obama’s affordable care act, so I read. I remain convinced this is partisan politics here Dem’s do not want to give Trump another win, even if it’s at the expense of the citizens. Trump offered four deals. Democrats took none. Let him a national emergency. Years later we can see how these crimes against American Citizens drop. I’ll guarantee that. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/103 "2019-01-29T13:44:02Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > You’ve got nothing. > > Act like 5% means nothing. Not when the number is very high. 5% of a 1,000? Okay, that’s not a lot. We are not talking about 50 people here! If you’re okay with 100,000 USA victims or more, say its not a problem. I think you’re dead wrong, and lately, in the news, an illegal alien murdered a police officer. > > The USA lost more citizens to illegal aliens than some quick wars. You might want to note the murder rate in Mexico is even higher than it is here. The nation has lots of problems. > > What about the cost of drugs and the damage that does? Shouldn’t that count? > > And how about weapons trafficking for the people concerned with that? > > Or Human rights and human trafficking when illegal alien women and children are victims? It is not like they can call the cops. > > The cost of 5.9 billion for border security is cheaper than the price to administer Obama’s affordable care act, so I read. I remain convinced this is partisan politics here Dem’s do not want to give Trump another win, even if it’s at the expense of the citizens. > > Trump offered four deals. Democrats took none. Let him a national emergency. Years later we can see how these crimes against American Citizens drop. I’ll guarantee that. Imagine we replaced half of the US population with illegal immigrants from mexico. Would you be more or less likely to be the victim of a violent crime? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/104 "2019-01-29T13:50:31Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > I get it; you CAN’T hold any moral ground when I show you the victims number over 100,000. It’s a disgrace and needs to be addressed. I’m all for measures that would actually reduce crime. Making sure that immigrant communities don’t fear the police and will cooperate with investigations is critical to this. Trump’s position and rhetoric, which spread fear into immigrant communities and greatly reduce the likelihood they will see the police as allies rather than enemies to be feared. Trump’s policies and rhetoric are making this worse, among many other things he’s doing great harm to. A giant, expensive (and pointless) symbol of racism and bigotry will increase hatred and bad feelings, and possibly even crime. It certainly won’t reduce it. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/105 "2019-01-29T14:04:05Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > Hilarious! You sound like a character from Dragon Ball. It’s over 100,000!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Quick go Super Trumpian! He’s spending 22 minutes squatting, grunting, and straining while nothing happens, much like Trump tweeting at 3 AM? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/106 "2019-01-29T14:12:01Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > You’ve got nothing. > > Act like 5% means nothing. Not when the number is very high. 5% of a 1,000? Okay, that’s not a lot. We are not talking about 50 people here! If you’re okay with 100,000 USA victims or more, say its not a problem. I think you’re dead wrong, and lately, in the news, an illegal alien murdered a police officer. > > The USA lost more citizens to illegal aliens than some quick wars. You might want to note the murder rate in Mexico is even higher than it is here. The nation has lots of problems. > > What about the cost of drugs and the damage that does? Shouldn’t that count? > > And how about weapons trafficking for the people concerned with that? > > Or Human rights and human trafficking when illegal alien women and children are victims? It is not like they can call the cops. > > The cost of 5.9 billion for border security is cheaper than the price to administer Obama’s affordable care act, so I read. I remain convinced this is partisan politics here Dem’s do not want to give Trump another win, even if it’s at the expense of the citizens. > > Trump offered four deals. Democrats took none. Let him a national emergency. Years later we can see how these crimes against American Citizens drop. I’ll guarantee that. You addressed not a single point I made with any facts, just fears and “what if’s”. If you don’t live here in Texas, don’t come here and tell me what the State is like. 4.5% is _shit_. As an entity in and of itself, our economy is the 10th largest in the world and we can handle 290,000 arrests over a 8yr period without help or advice from people in poor-assed, bullshit, no-border, uninfluential states like West Virginia, Mississippi, North Dakota, etc. You’re not getting your wall. Any honest evaluation of the politics here in Texas, and the GOP’s desperate need to keep Tejas aligned with the GOP, would inform this opinion. It’s just not happening. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/107 "2019-01-29T14:12:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m all for measures that would actually reduce crime. Making sure that immigrant communities don’t fear the police and will cooperate with investigations is critical to this. Trump’s position and rhetoric, which spread fear into immigrant communities and greatly reduce the likelihood they will see the police as allies rather than enemies to be feared. > > Trump’s policies and rhetoric are making this worse, among many other things he’s doing great harm to. A giant, expensive (and pointless) symbol of racism and bigotry will increase hatred and bad feelings, and possibly even crime. It certainly won’t reduce it. Iiandyiiii, Seventy-seven other nations have walls. Many Democratic top politicians live behind walls too, including Obama who has a six to eight 8-foot wall around the house he lives in. Are they Racists? Do tell. Check that bigotry crap at the door, as my points are correct on who has walls. Keep in mind, I’m for work visa’s. The USA should protect its citizens from predators, and has the right to let in whom they cost. Don’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/108 "2019-01-29T14:18:09Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Seventy-seven other nations have walls. Many Democratic top politicians live behind walls too, including Obama who has a six to eight 8-foot wall around the house he lives in. Are they Racists? Do tell. Check that bigotry crap at the door, as my points are correct on who has walls. This has nothing to do with anything I’ve ever said. I’ve been critical of Trump’s specific rhetoric, and the bigotry he’s spewed in support of his wall idea, not the idea of walls in general. Not much point to this discussion if you truly are unable to see that it’s possible to criticize Trump and his specific rhetoric while not being opposed to the idea of walls in any and all circumstances. > [@](#): > > Keep in mind, I’m for work visa’s. The USA should protect its citizens from predators, and has the right to let in whom they cost. Don’t you agree? This doesn’t dispute anything I’ve said. Trump’s policies and rhetoric are making things worse and hurting Americans. So far, your arguments seem to be made up of pointless platitudes and straw men. If you’d like to specifically address anything I’ve said, maybe we could actually have a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/109 "2019-01-29T14:21:50Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > You addressed not a single point I made with any facts, just fears and “what if’s”. > > If you don’t live here in Texas, don’t come here and tell me what the State is like. 5% is _shit_. As an entity in and of itself, our economy is the 10th largest in the world and we can handle 290,000 arrests over a 8yr period without help or advice from people in poor-assed bullshit states like West Virginia, Mississippi, North Dakota, etc. > > You’re not getting your wall. Any honest evaluation of the politics here in Texas, and the GOP’s desperate need to keep Tejas aligned with the GOP, would inform this opinion. It’s just not happening. Once again, don’t try to distort things with percentages, let’s count the actual amount of crime that happens and determine if it is a small or large number. It’s a huge number. No debating that John. Are you " okay " with it ? Also as I’m sure you know many people get away with crimes. The amount of crime committed is not equal to the number of convictions. NEA Section 201 authorizes the president to declare a national emergency. … Under NEA Section 301, statutory emergency authorities enabled by the federal emergency declaration cannot be exercised until the president specifies the provisions of law under which the president or other officials will act. Since Jan 2019 the USA has declared thirty nine states of national emergency. Does anyone " think " the loss of life at the hands of illegals or the hardcore drugs they smuggle doesn’t considerably pass the vast majority of the other national emergencies? President Trump is setting himself up to declare a national emergency. The wall and border security is coming. As we have already been over, the Democrats were for a The Secure Fence Act of 2006, which was passed by a Republican Congress and signed by President George W. Bush, authorized about 700 miles of fencing along certain stretches of land between the border of the United States and Mexico. The act also authorized the use of more vehicle barriers, checkpoints and lighting to curb illegal immigration, and the use of advanced technology such as satellites and unmanned aerial vehicles. At the time the act was being considered, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer were all members of the Senate. (Schumer of New York is now the Senate minority leader.) **Obama, Clinton, Schumer and 23 other Democratic senators voted in favor of the act when it passed in the Senate by a vote of 80 to 19.** ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Erudite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Ancient\_Erudite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Erudite)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/110 "2019-01-29T14:26:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This has nothing to do with anything I’ve ever said. I’ve been critical of Trump’s specific rhetoric, and the bigotry he’s spewed in support of his wall idea, not the idea of walls in general. Not much point to this discussion if you truly are unable to see that it’s possible to criticize Trump and his specific rhetoric while not being opposed to the idea of walls in any and all circumstances. > > This doesn’t dispute anything I’ve said. Trump’s policies and rhetoric are making things worse and hurting Americans. > > So far, your arguments seem to be made up of pointless platitudes and straw men. If you’d like to specifically address anything I’ve said, maybe we could actually have a discussion. If Straw men and platitudes are USA citizens, it’s shocking how you frame your argument! You would not say that to the victims. As I said before, roll the camera’s and let’s hear their stories. I ask a question, without replies. You said walls are racist and immoral did you not? Does that apply to Democrat politician’s who live behind them too? Bottom line: The numbers affected are too high to ignore this problem, and part of the solution is a higher wall, in certain areas. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/111 "2019-01-29T14:28:22Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > Once again, don’t try to distort things with percentages, let’s count the actual amount of crime that happens and determine if it is a small or large number. It’s a huge number. No debating that John. So, if something constitutes three one thousandths of a percent, you’d say that there was “no debate” that it constitutes a huge number? > [@](#): > > **Obama, Clinton, Schumer and 23 other Democratic senators voted in favor of the act when it passed in the Senate by a vote of 80 to 19.** And it’s been built. We have a wall already. No need to spend tens of billions to build what already exists. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/112 "2019-01-29T14:30:17Z")
The “Obama lives behind a wall” bullshit has been debunked by people with functioning eyeballs. But if that’s all you got, then you gotta go with what you got, eh? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/113 "2019-01-29T14:30:22Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > If Straw men and platitudes are USA citizens, it’s shocking how you frame your argument! You would not say that to the victims. As I said before, roll the camera’s and let’s hear their stories. None of this disputes anything I’ve said. > [@](#): > > I ask a question, without replies. You said walls are racist and immoral did you not? No, I did not. > [@](#): > > Does that apply to Democrat politician’s who live behind them too? Do you mean “Democratic” politicians? The adjective form of the word is Democratic, not Democrat. Just a friendly reminder. Unless you just want to piss off Democratic voters for no reason. > [@](#): > > Bottom line: The numbers affected are too high to ignore this problem, and part of the solution is a higher wall, in certain areas. I don’t accept the second part of this, and as for the first part (the bad numbers you refer to), Trump is making this worse. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/114 "2019-01-29T14:34:03Z")
If border security was really your concern you’d be spending your outrage on slackened airport security during the shutdown, where terrorists _actually_ enter your country. You’re so transparent, it’s hilarious! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/115 "2019-01-29T14:34:34Z")
It’s a small number. Saying Barack and Hillary supported it once is not a winning argument here in Texas. The fact that Trump wants it is also not a winning argument in Texas, as the past 2 years have shown. The National Emergency argument is merely dick-waving. Again, you’re ignoring the political reality here: this wall, as you envision it, destroys the GOP if actually built because it will cost your party Texas. Guarandamnteed. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/116 "2019-01-29T14:46:27Z")
To make myself even clearer: 36,500 arrests of illegal immigrants every year _ **is a small number** _. It may not seem that way to you, wherever you are, but it is that way to the 2nd largest State in the country, one that averages 800,000 arrests a year. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/117 "2019-01-29T14:50:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So far, your arguments seem to be made up of pointless platitudes and straw men. If you’d like to specifically address anything I’ve said, maybe we could actually have a discussion. There’s this old flowchart I remember a while back. > **[Flowchart with rules for debating religious people](https://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2011/07/28/flowchart-with-rules-for-debating-religious-people/)** > > In a comment to a previous post, G provided a link to an excellent flowchart that creates ground rules for debating Christians (though indeed it applies to all topics, not just Christianity or even… Please note that lower portion: "This is a discussion. I will talk to you, provided the following rules are obeyed: 1. Do not introduce new arguments while another argument has yet to be resolved. 2. Do not move on to another argument if it is shown that the facts you have relied on are invalid." (Not that this rule is being followed by either side…) I don’t feel like attempts to discuss this issue are going anywhere. I recommend any given participant here focus on one or two points, and simply refuse to engage on others. Otherwise, there’s hardly any point in discussing it at all. So with that in mind, **Ancient Erudite** , if we replaced half of all American citizens with illegal immigrants, would you be more or less likely to be the victim of violent crime? Also… > [@](#): > > The USA lost more citizens to illegal aliens than some quick wars. C’mon, man, the USA lost more citizens to heart disease and traffic accidents. Make an actual argument. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/118 "2019-01-29T15:06:16Z")
Let’s break this down: 290,000 arrests over 8 years = 36,250 # 36,250 arrests every year / 365 days 99 arrests a day 254 Texas counties .39 arrests of illegals per county per day. Living here in Texas, of ALL the people your county will arrest, it takes 3 days of arrests for them to corral one illegal immigrant. I live in Bexar County, seat of San Antonio, TX, the 7th largest city (somehow) in the US. We had 7,951 arrests in 2017 across all police jurisdictions. ([Cite](http://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime_records/pages/crimestatistics.htm), 2017, Chapter 10b (Excel).) By the numbers provided by the TxDPS, Bexar County had at least 142 illegal aliens in that number, but I’m perfectly willing to grant that location effects… being the largest Texan city closest to the Mexican border, and all… give us more. Let’s say 10x more, because I want to be all scary and shit. So, now I’m up to a hypothetical of 17% of all crime being committed by illegals. And you know what we need as assistance from the people of South Dakota, if that’s the case? We need them to shut the fuck up and continue to buy our oil. A $1.6 trillion economy means we can fix our own shit, thank u, next. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/119 "2019-01-29T15:08:12Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > He’s spending 22 minutes squatting, grunting, and straining while nothing happens, much like Trump tweeting at 3 AM? Oh god, I’m dyin’! You win the Internet for the day. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/120 "2019-01-29T15:09:21Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > If Straw men and platitudes are USA citizens, it’s shocking how you frame your argument! You would not say that to the victims. As I said before, roll the camera’s and let’s hear their stories. > > I ask a question, without replies. You said walls are racist and immoral did you not? Does that apply to Democrat politician’s who live behind them too? > > Bottom line: The numbers affected are too high to ignore this problem, and part of the solution is a higher wall, in certain areas. What number **wouldn’t** be too high? Funny how you won’t answer that, except it is obvious why you won’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440.md?page=7)