# The Military should allow open homosexuals to serve. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870 "2006-03-10T19:27:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/41 "2006-03-11T03:40:02Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > So is being a female military officer, and they’re not too fond of non-Muslims either. What makes you think caving in to religious bigotry will make anything better ? Well, sensitivity to host culture has its own merits. I remember reading what set Osama bin Laden off on his jihad was the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm. This is the first serious engagement of female American troops in the middle east. I could speculate that [37,000 female troops](http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq48-3f.htm) in the region kicking muslim ass was intolerable for this sexist bigot and may have been a significant motivating factor in creating al Qaeda. America and Europe had quite a history in the middle east, but apart from the Israeli aspect, I can’t recall any significant threat from Islamists until the first world trade centre bombing shortly after Desert Storm. I just wonder if we would be in the pickle we are in today with the Islamists if Americans didn’t encourage so many women to participate in Desert Storm. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/42 "2006-03-11T03:43:21Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > Openly gay people? > > I don’t understand the problem with the don’t ask don’t tell rule. Given my understanding that intimate fraternization is verboten in the military, is there any need to announce one’s sexual orientation? Furthermore, given the presence of American troops in Iraq Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, I understand that homosexuality is against the law in these muslim countries, so knowingly sending homosexuals might be a problem. To address each point in turn: 1. There’s no need to “announce” your sexual orientation for it to cause trouble. 2. What troops are in Saudi Arabia? 3. If I had to guess, I would say that the average Iraqi is much more concerned about sectarian violence, crime, the economy, security contractors and the American disregard for Iraqi calls for a withdrawal timetable than whether or not some American soldiers might be gay. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/43 "2006-03-11T03:52:08Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > I just wonder if we would be in the pickle we are in today with the Islamists if Americans didn’t encourage so many women to participate in Desert Storm. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/44 "2006-03-11T03:53:49Z")
> [@Fionn](#): > > 1. If I had to guess, I would say that the average Iraqi is much more concerned about sectarian violence, crime, the economy, security contractors and the American disregard for Iraqi calls for a withdrawal timetable than whether or not some American soldiers might be gay. You forgot cartoons ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/45 "2006-03-11T04:15:38Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > Well, sensitivity to host culture has its own merits. Not if it’s a matter of bigotry. Tolerance for bigotry just makes it worse. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/46 "2006-03-11T12:17:30Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > After all, the last thing anyone should be thinking about while under fire is “Gee, maybe the dude next to me is lusting after my butt.” That’s insane, not to mention just simply prejudiced. And yet women in the military are in exactly that position. And more and more often they are coming under fire. Frankly, if I have to put up with knowing my fellow soldiers think occasional lustful thoughts about me, I think the big, manly men around me can learn to deal with it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/47 "2006-03-11T14:55:10Z")
bluethree: exactly. The “manly men” need to start being manly and quit being afraid of another person’s sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/48 "2006-03-11T15:58:43Z")
To go back to the OP, the military should let gays and lesbians serve, but it’s not going to any time soon, and neither this Congress, nor any Congress that could get elected in the near future is going to extend more rights to gays and lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/49 "2006-03-11T17:09:13Z")
I don’t have a whole lot to add to this thread, except to say some simple and hopefully self-evident things. Throughout history (yes even in the US), there have been gays in the military. From way before Sparta, right on down to modern times. Somehow, the world kept spinning, armies still functioned, battles were still won. The ability to follow orders and to fight have nothing to do with a person’s love interests. I imagine, during a pitched battle, people won’t care who you sleep with, they’d be more worried in whether you will fight and keep them alive. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/50 "2006-03-11T19:01:58Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > Openly gay people? > > I don’t understand the problem with the don’t ask don’t tell rule. Given my understanding that intimate fraternization is verboten in the military, is there any need to announce one’s sexual orientation? Furthermore, given the presence of American troops in Iraq Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, I understand that homosexuality is against the law in these muslim countries, so knowingly sending homosexuals might be a problem. Well the military consider “telling” to be comunicating one’s orientation in any way to any other human being. Private diaries, letters, family members, being at a club while on leave, having certain magazines, etc. are all ways to get thrown out. I have a friend who was in the USAF and just finished basic training when her ex-girlfriend sent her a letter and someone found it. She was given a choice betweeb adiminstrative seperation and dishonourable discharge. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/51 "2006-03-11T20:17:58Z")
I thought “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was a botch-up from the get-go. I was active duty then, and I think that allowing homosexuals to serve openly in the military could have been done, then. Certainly I don’t think it would have caused the problems that people keep bringing up for unit cohesiveness. And that was almost 15 years ago. (I think the so-called Wiccan who didn’t shower, until he got an order to do so, was more detrimental than any number of homosexuals who would shower regularly could be.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/52 "2006-03-11T21:14:36Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If the Israelis can make it work, I thnk we can, too. Remember, though, that in Israel most of the extreme fundamentalists stay [out of the military](http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/0703/draft.html). There would doubtless be a lot more hostility towards gay Israeli servicemembers if the ultra-Orthodox _haredi_ weren’t exempt from the draft. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/53 "2006-03-11T22:55:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Remember, though, that in Israel most of the extreme fundamentalists stay [out of the military](http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/0703/draft.html). There would doubtless be a lot more hostility towards gay Israeli servicemembers if the ultra-Orthodox _haredi_ weren’t exempt from the draft. True, and it’s also not voluntary, so you get a lot of “liberals” in the military who might not normally enlist. But let’s not just assume that fundamtalist = gay hater. And perhaps a more gay-friendly US military would attract more “liberals” in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/54 "2006-03-12T02:05:58Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > And perhaps a more gay-friendly US military would attract more “liberals” in the first place. Which wouldn’t be a bad thing. I’d love to see more communication between both the military and the left. I don’t mean to say that it doesn’t happen, but there is a lot of prejudice on both sides, which often leads to people who actively avoid being “contaminated” by talking to those across the boundary. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/55 "2006-03-12T02:39:19Z")
worst of all, under dont tell, gay soldiers are more or less obliged to pretend to be straight, thus competing \*unfairly for the limited pool of permissible pussy. (\*They are too buffed, too tidy, too well-read, too color coordinated, too good at dancing, too communicative, too …oh shit, you get the idea. Let them out of the closet, or the straight guys will never get laid…) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/56 "2006-03-12T02:51:41Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > (I think the so-called Wiccan who didn’t shower, until he got an order to do so, was more detrimental than any number of homosexuals who would shower regularly could be.) Why wouldn’t he shower? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/57 "2006-03-12T05:02:18Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > She was given a choice betweeb adiminstrative seperation and dishonourable discharge. Most likely, she was given a choice between accepting an administrative separation or facing charges at a court-martial. A Dishonorable Discharge can only be issued pursuant to a sentence of a court-martial. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/58 "2006-03-12T05:04:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Most likely, she was given a choice between accepting an administrative separation or facing charges at a court-martial. A Dishonorable Discharge can only be issued pursuant to a sentence of a court-martial. This is probably a stupid question, but what is an administrative separation? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/59 "2006-03-12T05:19:16Z")
An Administrative Separation (ADSEP {this acronym is also used as a verb}) is a means by which the Service Member may be separated from the Service without having to go through a court-martial or waiting until the contractually-required period (known as OBLISERV or obligated service) expires. There are a number of reasons for which a Service Member may be ADSEPed. Not all of the reasons generate a negative re-enlistment indicator. A court-martial, on the other hand, is an actual trial. One of the sentencing options available to the military judge, if the accused is found guilty, is to award (yeah, I know, the military has some funny ways of saying things) a discharge such as Bad Conduct Discharge or Dishonorable Discharge. Actually, the type of separation is Discharge, the character of service is either Bad Conduct or Dishonorable. For ADSEP, the type of separation is Discharge (or perhaps Administrative Separation) and the character of service is based on a set formula taking into account the Service Members record of punishment (if any) and evaluations. Dishonorable and Bad Conduct are not choices for this type of separation. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870/60 "2006-03-12T09:35:53Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > To go back to the OP, the military should let gays and lesbians serve, but it’s not going to any time soon, and neither this Congress, nor any Congress that could get elected in the near future is going to extend more rights to gays and lesbians. [One hundred ten](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR01059:@@@P) members of Congress now support the Military Readiness Enhancement Act, a Congressional bill that would repeal the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” ban on lesbian, gay and bisexual personnel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-military-should-allow-open-homosexuals-to-serve/347870.md?page=4)