# The mind is pictures? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 29, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853 "2018-12-29T03:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/41 "2019-01-15T21:31:22Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Well my thought process is that because she believes it that there must be something to it. I don’t believe it. There must be something to that. Be careful though - if the two of us ever come into physical contact her belief and my anti-belief will both instantly convert to energy in a giant explosion. This sort of thing is why I don’t leave the house much - too dangerous. > [@Machinaforce](#): > > I know that the molecules and atoms that our bodies are made of come from the universe. Though it is a stretch to say that you are the universe. You are the body which is part of and included in all that, but not the whole thing. Cake has eggs in it; that doesn’t mean cake is eggs. Cake has sugar in it; that doesn’t mean eggs are sugar. I’m not sure where I was going with that. (Is that a problem?) ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/42 "2019-01-15T21:40:11Z")
It’s just that I fall for personal experience even though it’s not really “proof”. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/43 "2019-01-15T22:09:56Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It’s just that I fall for personal experience even though it’s not really “proof”. Do not be so open-minded that your brains fall out. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/44 "2019-01-15T22:10:00Z")
The thing to remember is that stuff like meditation and new-ageness and bongs and that whole business all demonstrate effects in mindsets, moods, and feelings, and _claim_ that these experiences they’re having prove some theory or another about reality as a whole. The experiences can be real without the theories being right. It’s entirely possible for people to be wrong about why things are happening, even when the things are happening to their own minds and emotions. Especially when the things are happening to their own minds and emotions, rather - they’re hardly objective observers in those cases. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/45 "2019-01-15T23:52:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The thing to remember is that stuff like meditation and new-ageness and bongs and that whole business all demonstrate effects in mindsets, moods, and feelings, and _claim_ that these experiences they’re having prove some theory or another about reality as a whole. > > The experiences can be real without the theories being right. It’s entirely possible for people to be wrong about why things are happening, even when the things are happening to their own minds and emotions. Especially when the things are happening to their own minds and emotions, rather - they’re hardly objective observers in those cases. Well the phrase is something that "we live in our minds’ when we really are the universe. That before us there was the universe, and we came from that. Of course they didn’t say HOW that was true. But you might be right. It seems like they have experiences and “insight” that are later rationalized. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/46 "2019-01-16T00:14:45Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Well the phrase is something that "we live in our minds’ when we really are the universe. That before us there was the universe, and we came from that. > > Of course they didn’t say HOW that was true. But you might be right. It seems like they have experiences and “insight” that are later rationalized. I hear that with the right mental states, whether chemically or naturally induced, you can feel also sorts of crazy things. You can find yourself deciding that all kinds of crazy things are true. You can find yourself _profoundly believing_ that all sorts of crazy things are true. I haven’t tried any of this stuff myself, because I _like_ my brain cells (we go way back), but I gather it’s possible to get wonderful happy feelings that you and your neighbors and your neighbor’s driveway asphalt are all _connected_. _Deeply._ But that’s just the drugs/altered state talking. In actuality your neihbor’s asphalt doesn’t care about you at all. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/47 "2019-01-16T03:04:26Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I hear that with the right mental states, whether chemically or naturally induced, you can feel also sorts of crazy things. You can find yourself deciding that all kinds of crazy things are true. You can find yourself _profoundly believing_ that all sorts of crazy things are true. > > I haven’t tried any of this stuff myself, because I _like_ my brain cells (we go way back), but I gather it’s possible to get wonderful happy feelings that you and your neighbors and your neighbor’s driveway asphalt are all _connected_. _Deeply._ > > But that’s just the drugs/altered state talking. In actuality your neihbor’s asphalt doesn’t care about you at all. Flags were raised when she said “through this meditation you will realize that you aren’t alive”. Again coming back to “you are the universe”. I guess I just give people the benefit of the doubt too much. If they believe it I assume there is something to it (or maybe that it’s some “crazy wisdom my conceptual mind can’t grasp”). Though it was odd how every question I asked felt ignored (in the sense that she didn’t address the concerns or meat behind them). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/48 "2019-01-16T18:24:05Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Flags were raised when she said “through this meditation you will realize that you aren’t alive”. Again coming back to “you are the universe”. Um, _yeah_. That would definitely be a red flag, because by any sensible definition of “alive”, you’re definitely it. (Or at least you were when you wrote that last post. Knock on wood?) > [@Machinaforce](#): > > I guess I just give people the benefit of the doubt too much. If they believe it I assume there is something to it (or maybe that it’s some “crazy wisdom my conceptual mind can’t grasp”). Though it was odd how every question I asked felt ignored (in the sense that she didn’t address the concerns or meat behind them). Honestly, at this point I’d recommend that you find friends who are less, well, woo. Play some board games. Video games. Maybe sports, if you’re unlike me and have muscles attached to your bones. Find people you can do things with that are actually entertaining, rather than just confusing and weird. (And _definitely_ avoid anybody who wants to sell you something, or get you to buy something they buy.) In all seriousness, I’d invite you over to join me for my next board game night, but I strongly suspect you live nowhere near me. (And also I’m a weirdo stranger person, mustn’t forget that.) We’re probably going to play Zombicide. There’s very little existential confusion in Zombicide. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/49 "2019-01-17T02:28:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Um, _yeah_. That would definitely be a red flag, because by any sensible definition of “alive”, you’re definitely it. (Or at least you were when you wrote that last post. Knock on wood?) > > Honestly, at this point I’d recommend that you find friends who are less, well, woo. Play some board games. Video games. Maybe sports, if you’re unlike me and have muscles attached to your bones. Find people you can do things with that are actually entertaining, rather than just confusing and weird. (And _definitely_ avoid anybody who wants to sell you something, or get you to buy something they buy.) > > In all seriousness, I’d invite you over to join me for my next board game night, but I strongly suspect you live nowhere near me. (And also I’m a weirdo stranger person, mustn’t forget that.) We’re probably going to play Zombicide. There’s very little existential confusion in Zombicide. It’s just that I’m a sucker for “cryptic wisdom” or personal experience. There is also the idea In my mind that I need to list why I am rejecting a claim (provide evidence) but for some reason I need nothing to believe someone but their say so. I end up assuming they are right about what they say and try to work out how they got their. Of course I see now that it is fallacious. You can’t just assume they are right and figure out how they got there they have to show you that. Unfortunately any attempt at questioning is shut down as “mind” or ego. But I don’t know why I give such credence to “mystics”. Personal experience is powerful since they say they had a revelation or how it changed their lives. Which in my mind translates to “they might be on to something”. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/50 "2019-01-17T21:21:05Z")
So apparently she meant that “you are not living well” when she said you are not alive, because you are living in the world of the thoughts that come through your mind and not in the present. My guess is that we live our lives according to what we believe things and people to be (based on our senses) and not as they really are (empty, whatever that it). My question would be “how is that living well”. What is wrong with thoughts? I know that sometimes we can get bogged down in the past and past experience and feelings can affect the present. But that’s not always a bad thing and the reason we make decisions is based on the values we acquire through life. Throwing all that away doesn’t seem practical or desirable. Because without any values we wouldn’t do anything. Seems like a “war” on subjectivity. Things mean differently to different people, how is that not reality? What part of that is false? That it’s not inherent? So what? Who says the “world of thoughts” is less real than their claimed “actual one”. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/51 "2019-01-17T22:34:40Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > So apparently she meant that “you are not living well” when she said you are not alive, because you are living in the world of the thoughts that come through your mind and not in the present. My guess is that we live our lives according to what we believe things and people to be (based on our senses) and not as they really are (empty, whatever that it). My question would be “how is that living well”. What is wrong with thoughts? I know that sometimes we can get bogged down in the past and past experience and feelings can affect the present. But that’s not always a bad thing and the reason we make decisions is based on the values we acquire through life. Throwing all that away doesn’t seem practical or desirable. Because without any values we wouldn’t do anything. > > Seems like a “war” on subjectivity. Things mean differently to different people, how is that not reality? What part of that is false? That it’s not inherent? So what? Who says the “world of thoughts” is less real than their claimed “actual one”. I’m pretty confident that there’s an actual objective reality, but you don’t see it by ignoring your senses. And also in objective reality people aren’t empty - they have spleens and stuff in there. You should try not to get bogged down in memories and regrets, but embracing woo and delusion isn’t the right way to avoid that, and (somehow) flushing your mind of all thoughts, feelings, and memories _definitely_ isn’t the way to do that. Flushing your mind of memories of woo might not be a bad thing, though. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/52 "2019-01-18T05:53:05Z")
It’s just the whole “living a lie” line they throw around cuts deep. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/53 "2019-01-18T12:39:20Z")
If she is offering to sell you these secrets or insights then she is not your friend, she is a huckster looking to fleece you with no more investment on her part than her voice. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/54 "2019-01-18T16:43:46Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If she is offering to sell you these secrets or insights then she is not your friend, she is a huckster looking to fleece you with no more investment on her part than her voice. Yeah. I really want to give people the benefit of the doubt because she seemed so nice. But the conversation came back to the meditation they do THERE and that if I had more questions I needed an appointment. I don’t want to believe such people are out for a buck but… But like I said when someone says “you are not alive (or not living well)” or that you are living a lie, those cut hard. They make me think they have some great truth(because who really wants to live a lie?) especially when it’s phrased like the first statement. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/55 "2019-01-18T17:57:34Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > But like I said when someone says “you are not alive (or not living well)” or that you are living a lie, those cut hard. They make me think they have some great truth(because who really wants to live a lie?) especially when it’s phrased like the first statement. This thread, and the dozen other similar threads you’ve started here, are pretty solid evidence that you are not living well, and that you repeatedly tell yourself lies in order to function. You have no sense of self worth, you look for validation from random strangers, you ignore evidence that would help you and twist yourself into knots of illogical fantasy to avoid taking care of your self, all because you are looking for an easy way to rationalize your dissatisfaction with life. Now, how does that make you feel? Do I have some great truth or am I just spouting pseudo-scientific pablum? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/56 "2019-01-18T18:40:57Z")
Harsh, **Telemark**. **Machinaforce** , when these people say you’re living a lie, they’re wrong. Simply, wrong. I see two plausible reasons they could be saying these things: 1. They’re negging you so that they can sell you something. 2. They’re starry-eyed believers who really mean well (who came to hold these beliefs because somebody negged them and sold them on it). Unfortunately for them, though, they’re living a lie. Try not to let the hucksters and woos shake you. You may not be living _well_, but as long as you have your feet on the ground and are recognizing the reality of the objective reality around you, you’re not living a lie. (Note: I realize that as random weirdo on the internet you have no reason to trust what I say, but I do mean well.) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/57 "2019-01-18T19:32:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Harsh, **Telemark**. Not intended to be. Just trying to use what the OP says “cuts hard” and see if he recognizes it in another form. Perhaps it can open his eyes to the ridiculous lack of critical approach he takes to woo and nonsense elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/58 "2019-01-19T06:25:42Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Not intended to be. Just trying to use what the OP says “cuts hard” and see if he recognizes it in another form. Perhaps it can open his eyes to the ridiculous lack of critical approach he takes to woo and nonsense elsewhere. It’s just that I have this need to “figure out” what they are trying to say and then devise a counter argument to neutralize it (mostly to maintain my worldview). But since philosophy isn’t my strong suit at all I struggle hard and because I can’t come up with a response I find myself thinking they are right. It’s followed by working backwards from their point to see how they were right. Judging from the “poetry” they tend to write about their “awakening” I’m led to believe they are right on some level. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/59 "2019-01-19T06:27:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Harsh, **Telemark**. > > **Machinaforce** , when these people say you’re living a lie, they’re wrong. Simply, wrong. I see two plausible reasons they could be saying these things: > > 1. They’re negging you so that they can sell you something. > > 2. They’re starry-eyed believers who really mean well (who came to hold these beliefs because somebody negged them and sold them on it). Unfortunately for them, though, they’re living a lie. > Try not to let the hucksters and woos shake you. You may not be living _well_, but as long as you have your feet on the ground and are recognizing the reality of the objective reality around you, you’re not living a lie. > > (Note: I realize that as random weirdo on the internet you have no reason to trust what I say, but I do mean well.) The trouble lies in the objective part since most of these people I listen to claim to know it. Hence the bit about the thoughts and living in your own mind and what your senses pick up (whatever that means). ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/60 "2019-01-19T06:29:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > This thread, and the dozen other similar threads you’ve started here, are pretty solid evidence that you are not living well, and that you repeatedly tell yourself lies in order to function. You have no sense of self worth, you look for validation from random strangers, you ignore evidence that would help you and twist yourself into knots of illogical fantasy to avoid taking care of your self, all because you are looking for an easy way to rationalize your dissatisfaction with life. > > Now, how does that make you feel? Do I have some great truth or am I just spouting pseudo-scientific pablum? I’m not trying to rationalize my dissatisfaction, it’s rather the fact that I have all these questions from these people poking holes in my worldview and I don’t know how to respond or handle them that causes it. I try to get by through ignoring them but I can’t help but feel like I’m living a lie by ignoring their words and not seeing the truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853.md?page=4)