# The mind is pictures? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 29, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853 "2018-12-29T03:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/161 "2019-02-08T00:30:45Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Well their “evidence” seems to be anecdotal. Like how it worked for the Buddha, some monks/teachers and practitioners. Of course there are other accounts about people who suffered from it. I’ll concede I’m not well read about religions I don’t care about that make claims I don’t believe, but are you actually saying that they claim they can _ **prove** _ that the Buddha, some monks/teachers and practitioners managed to achieve a form of happiness that is not only superior to my fondness for Twinkies but is also _eternal?_ Because that’s a proof I’d like to see. Of course if you’ve just meant that they claim (without proof) that these people accomplished this fantastic end, and merely point to them as evidence without proving that they’ve accomplished what they claimed, then that’s not quite as impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/162 "2019-02-08T02:46:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’ll concede I’m not well read about religions I don’t care about that make claims I don’t believe, but are you actually saying that they claim they can _ **prove** _ that the Buddha, some monks/teachers and practitioners managed to achieve a form of happiness that is not only superior to my fondness for Twinkies but is also _eternal?_ Because that’s a proof I’d like to see. > > Of course if you’ve just meant that they claim (without proof) that these people accomplished this fantastic end, and merely point to them as evidence without proving that they’ve accomplished what they claimed, then that’s not quite as impressive. Well it more like taking their words for it. They say the Buddha did it, and some “teachers” and practitioners say they reached it. They claim to be liberated and not subject to lesser desires and pleasure. Of course this is more just taking their word for it, even their claim is essentially to “have faith” that such a thing exists beyond our normal pleasure. To never know craving again. Those who claim it seem sincere and convincing, but it’s still just their word. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/163 "2019-02-08T03:47:37Z")
Don’t take their word for anything. They are liars and bullshitters trying to get your money. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/164 "2019-02-08T04:04:06Z")
The Indian view is that the Buddha was enlightened, but his teachings were lost or greatly distorted within a generation or two. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/165 "2019-02-08T04:23:42Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The Indian view is that the Buddha was enlightened, but his teachings were lost or greatly distorted within a generation or two. I guess what I’m getting at is that I’m ok with how my life is, but they say “no you’re not, it sucks and you have to do this to make it better”. Buddhism ironically depressed rather than helped me and my life was better before it. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/166 "2019-02-08T07:58:45Z")
Hey, can I just ask, what is your actual relation with these people? Do you know them in real life? Do you have face to face interactions with them? Or is this just some website you’ve stumbled across? What do they want with you? Do they know you? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/167 "2019-02-08T15:01:06Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Hey, can I just ask, what is your actual relation with these people? Do you know them in real life? Do you have face to face interactions with them? Or is this just some website you’ve stumbled across? What do they want with you? Do they know you? I don’t really know them, but it’s more more Buddhism has bothered and haunted me since I read it. Makes it sound like there is only one “correct”answer to life ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/168 "2019-02-08T22:29:35Z")
Like “why pursue temporary pleasure when you can work to achieve permanent happiness.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/169 "2019-02-08T22:44:21Z")
Don’t knock temporary pleasure man, it’s a lot of fun. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/170 "2019-02-08T23:18:12Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Don’t knock temporary pleasure man, it’s a lot of fun. I’m just explaining their reasoning. But it similar to the thought experiment that if you could be hooked up to a machine that would give you pleasure all the time would you. Most people would say no. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/171 "2019-02-08T23:53:35Z")
But that wouldn’t be temporary, would it? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/172 "2019-02-08T23:56:39Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Well it more like taking their words for it. They say the Buddha did it, and some “teachers” and practitioners say they reached it. They claim to be liberated and not subject to lesser desires and pleasure. Of course this is more just taking their word for it, even their claim is essentially to “have faith” that such a thing exists beyond our normal pleasure. To never know craving again. Those who claim it seem sincere and convincing, but it’s still just their word. Then they have nothing - and more than that they have no basis for believing that they do! There is no communication between the dead and the living. (Because -spoiler alert- there is no afterlife.) People can say any goofy crap they want about what happened to Fred or Joe or Siddhartha after they died, but all of it is -and _must_- be pulled out of their ass. None of them know anything, because there’s no way they _could_ know. There are no gurus. You have nothing to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/173 "2019-02-08T23:58:11Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Like “why pursue temporary pleasure when you can work to achieve permanent happiness.” Because there is no such thing as permanent happiness - temporary is all we get, and then we die. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/174 "2019-02-09T00:08:38Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > My best guess, give how bad I am at philosophy. Is that they regard sensory experience as the false mind, and that how you were before all that is the true you. But somehow I doubt that since humans aren’t born blank slates. They also don’t say how that is false other than their say so. Lastly I scratch my head at “become” truth. I am not an expert on any of this, but I would suggest you shortcut the bullshit and go straight to soto zen buddhism. There are other paths to enlightenment, but that one is pretty straightforward. There is no digging into deeper layers, there’s no excavating the past, there’s no rummaging through your mind to find the truest version of you. You sit down and focus on the breath. Stop thinking about what you want to be, or what you were. The good and true thing is already there, you just need to quiet down and listen to it. The more you listen the louder it gets. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/175 "2019-02-09T05:53:05Z")
The Vedic view makes more sense to me. Whether you accept it or not, it’s logical and consistent, and in principle verifiable by personal experience. The basic concept is that the the ultimate reality is consciousness, and the whole universe is a virtual construct within consciousness. Matter only exists virtually within consciousness. So is the universe real? Both yes and no. It’s a virtual construct, so in that sense you can say it’s not real, but since consciousness is real, everything based on it is real. Analogies help to clarify the ideas, though they have their limitations. **Analogy 1.** Are the objects and locations in a computer games real? Both yes and no. No - because they only exist in the virtual space of the computer game, so in that sense they are illusionary. Yes - because if you are playing the game, you can’t take the attitude that objects don’t exist. They exist for all practical purposes within the game, and follow certain ‘laws of nature’ within the game. You have to treat them as real. You’re not going to win the game by doing nothing and saying that it isn’t real. **Analogy 2.** Consciousness is like the ocean, and individuals are like waves on the ocean. Each wave has its own limited structure, individuality, and scope in time and space, but ultimately all waves are just perturbations of the ocean. The innermost self of all beings is the self of the universe, and because it’s all consciousness, individuals have free will. **Analogy 3.** Another analogy is that individual consciousness is like white light passing through a glass of coloured water. The light passing through takes on qualities according to the reflecting/refracting medium. The individual consciousness is simply the universal consciousness reflected through the brain and body (which are themselves virtual constructs within consciousness). So any change to the brain results in a change of consciousness, like changing the colour of the water in the glass changes the colour of the reflection. But it is possible to refine the brain and body to reflect the pure white light of universal consciousness, and that is enlightenment. A selection of quotations from the Yoga Vasistha: > [@](#): > > The sole reality is the infinite consciousness which is omnipresent, pure, tranquil, omnipotent. … Because the substratum (the infinite consciousness) is real, all that is based on it acquires reality, though the reality is of the substratum alone. > > One cannot say that [the universe] is real or unreal, but one can only say that the substratum alone is real. The world exists in Brahman only as a word, an idea. It is neither real nor unreal. > > The infinite consciousness is unmanifest, though omnipresent, even as space, though existing everywhere, is unmanifest. Just as the reflection of an object in crystal can be said to be neither real nor entirely unreal, one cannot say that this universe which is reflected in the infinite consciousness is real nor unreal. Again, just as space is unaffected by the clouds that float in it, this infinite consciousness is unaffected and untouched by the universe that appears in it. > > Just as light is not seen except through the reflecting agent, even so the infinite consciousness is revealed through these various bodies. It is essentially nameless and formless, but names and forms are ascribed to its reflections. > > Consciousness reflecting in consciousness shines as consciousness and exists as consciousness; yet, to one who is ignorant (though considering oneself as wise and rational) there arises the notion that there has come into being and there exists something other than this consciousness. To the ignorant this consciousness appears as the world-appearance; to the wise the same consciousness appears as the one Self. > > This consciousness is not created, nor does it perish; it is eternal and the world-appearance is superimposed on it, even as waves in relation to the ocean. In that consciousness, when it is reflected within itself, there arises the ‘I am’ notion which gives rise to diversity. > > In that infinite consciousness there is an inherent non-recognition of its infinite nature. That appears to manifest as ‘I’ and ‘the world’. > > In the mirror of infinite consciousness countless reflections are seen, which constitute the appearance of this world. These are the individual consciousnesses. Individuality is like just a little agitation on the surface of the ocean of Brahman; or just a little movement in the flame of a candle in a windless room. When, in that slight agitation, the infinitude of the infinite consciousness is veiled, limitation of consciousness appears to arise. This too is inherent in that infinite consciousness. And that limitation of consciousness is known as the individual. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/176 "2019-02-09T06:42:25Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The Vedic view makes more sense to me. Whether you accept it or not, it’s logical and consistent, and in principle verifiable by personal experience. > > The basic concept is that the the ultimate reality is consciousness, and the whole universe is a virtual construct within consciousness. Matter only exists virtually within consciousness. > > So is the universe real? Both yes and no. It’s a virtual construct, so in that sense you can say it’s not real, but since consciousness is real, everything based on it is real. > > Analogies help to clarify the ideas, though they have their limitations. > > **Analogy 1.** Are the objects and locations in a computer games real? Both yes and no. No - because they only exist in the virtual space of the computer game, so in that sense they are illusionary. Yes - because if you are playing the game, you can’t take the attitude that objects don’t exist. They exist for all practical purposes within the game, and follow certain ‘laws of nature’ within the game. You have to treat them as real. You’re not going to win the game by doing nothing and saying that it isn’t real. > > **Analogy 2.** Consciousness is like the ocean, and individuals are like waves on the ocean. Each wave has its own limited structure, individuality, and scope in time and space, but ultimately all waves are just perturbations of the ocean. The innermost self of all beings is the self of the universe, and because it’s all consciousness, individuals have free will. > > **Analogy 3.** Another analogy is that individual consciousness is like white light passing through a glass of coloured water. The light passing through takes on qualities according to the reflecting/refracting medium. The individual consciousness is simply the universal consciousness reflected through the brain and body (which are themselves virtual constructs within consciousness). So any change to the brain results in a change of consciousness, like changing the colour of the water in the glass changes the colour of the reflection. But it is possible to refine the brain and body to reflect the pure white light of universal consciousness, and that is enlightenment. > A selection of quotations from the Yoga Vasistha: Can’t say I agree with any of that, especially since evidence seems to point to consciousness being a product of the brain. As far as “universal consciousness” that sounds like nonsense to me, but people can believe whatever they want. I don’t think there is such a state as enlightenment. Also personal experience isn’t a verification of anything. If it were then aliens, bigfoot, and the Illuminati would be real. Experiencing something as so, doesn’t necessarily make it so. But this is getting off topic. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/177 "2019-02-09T06:46:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I am not an expert on any of this, but I would suggest you shortcut the bullshit and go straight to soto zen buddhism. There are other paths to enlightenment, but that one is pretty straightforward. > > There is no digging into deeper layers, there’s no excavating the past, there’s no rummaging through your mind to find the truest version of you. You sit down and focus on the breath. Stop thinking about what you want to be, or what you were. The good and true thing is already there, you just need to quiet down and listen to it. The more you listen the louder it gets. Not really interested in Zen or any religion. Spirituality was kind of forced upon me as a kid and people tend to look at you funny if you don’t have any spiritual beliefs of any sort. My former philosophy was that I don’t care what people believe in so long as it doesn’t bother me. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/178 "2019-02-09T06:52:36Z")
Not to mention that whole “one consciousness” viewpoint is pretty cold and callous. Most Eastern mysticism tends to be. Though it reads more like poetry than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/179 "2019-02-09T15:20:00Z")
There isn’t anything logical about the Vedic stuff, it’s just a story to interpret personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853/180 "2019-02-09T21:32:06Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Plus the stuff about abandoning things is rooted in Buddhism nonattachment. Since no achievement, item, relationship is permanent and lasting then one shouldn’t pursue them. But that’s misery. Letting go of family, hobbies, a career I love. Why would they preach such things? Don’t pursue anything because it won’t last anyway? You haven’t heard of [right action, right livelihood, right effort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path)? Those and more are core principles of Buddhism that address living in the world and doing the stuff that people do in life. Normal life isn’t rejected at all. I’m not Buddhist, but of all religions it impresses me as having the most rational and experientially-based methodology. It encourages people not to take anything on faith, but to verify things for themselves empirically. I respect that. So much of the disdain for Buddhism I see around here comes from flat-out ignorance of what Buddhism actually is. Buddhism is not at all problem-free for me, because of the misogyny of saying that women cannot attain enlightenment. What a crap-ass idea to build into a religion (I wonder how Pema Chödrön deals with it). All I’m saying is give credit where credit is due, and criticize it out of knowledge instead of ignorance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mind-is-pictures/826853.md?page=10)