# The mindset of Creationists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613 "2009-09-02T06:03:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/81 "2009-09-04T13:04:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jesus is alive via the Resurrection and preached to many. > > While I’m sure this is true for some, what the Word has taught me is step above all that, they are using facts of man, we are using the truths of God. It is a assault, but is it one where man is throwing stones at the Starship Enterprise which God gives us. The only way we can mess up is engage them on their terms, land the ship and throw rocks back at them instead of nuking them from orbit 😃 What you call the facts of man ‘is’ the Word of what man has called the Word of God. The Word of God would not be contradictory. It can be proven that much of it is not true and did not happen. The Word itself can be used to prove this. People tend to believe what they want to be the truth,and change the meaning to suit their own beliefs. God would not inspire people to see things in a contridictory manner, but all would understand it as the same. Why would God dictate a whole book to Muhammad? There is as much proof of that as there is of the Old and New Testement. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/82 "2009-09-04T13:39:30Z")
> [@Vlad\_Igor](#): > > FTR the passages from the Synoptic Gospels all refer to a common source (“Q”, since lost) for much of their content. The return of Jesus within a generation it isn’t so much an amplified message as it is one framed in different ways by the authors of Matthew, Mark and Luke. However, **kanicbird** ’s response is weak and obtuse at best, and doesn’t address the contradiction uncovered when those passages and [Matt 24:42](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:42&version=NIV) are understood literally. > > The entire chapter of Matt 24 is rather political in nature, as Israel at the time of Jesus was occupied by the Roman army, and Rome worked hard to keep the Jewish people and faith in check. Jesus was referring to the political upheaval he saw coming (and Jerusalem was eventually sacked and the Temple destroyed about 40 years after the Crucifixion). His words regarding wars and persecutions based on religious beliefs was not new then and has been seen many times since. I see his words in verses 30-31 a comfort to those who find themselves on the wrong side of religious conflict and persecution, that they are not forgotten or abandoned by God despite what happens to them. I see the later verses (42+) discussing what personal responsibility and comportment should be during oppression. The oppressed are called to be true to their faith so that when the oppression is called out and stopped, they won’t be behaving in a way that makes the rest of the world say “See, they deserved it. Look at how badly they behave.” > > Vlad/Igor Matthew chapter 16 verses 27 through 28; For the Son Of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father,and then he will render to every one according to his conduct. Amen I say to you, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death,till they have seen the Son Of man coming in his kingdom." Where does it show Jesus coming during their life time and why didn’t it happen? Are there 2000 year old people living here among us? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/83 "2009-09-04T13:47:29Z")
> [@Vlad\_Igor](#): > > His words regarding wars and persecutions based on religious beliefs was not new then … > Vlad/Igor Really? How many religious wars had there been. I personally know of none. That phenomenon basically started with him, as far as I can tell Persecutions, hmm Echnaton maybe? Hey look another monotheistic religion, coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/84 "2009-09-04T13:50:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’d kinda like to see an example of someone who commuted to work on faith alone. This morning my truck was out of diesel, the little reading was telling me I had 7 miles to empty. No Exxon in site, I had faith I would make the 25 mile commute. I did. ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Igor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Vlad\_Igor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Igor)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/85 "2009-09-04T17:39:14Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Matthew chapter 16 verses 27 through 28;…Where does it show Jesus coming during their life time and why didn’t it happen? > Are there 2000 year old people living here among us? Jesus’ second coming didn’t happen in the lifetimes of the eyewitnesses of his ministry, nor to their grandchildren. The Synoptic Gospels were written between 60 and 90 years after Jesus died, adapted from an earlier document that I referred to above. Eyewitnesses were dying, and there was a push to preserve Jesus’ teachings for future generations before they were lost. The Gospel of John came even later, and was written as something of a manual by Christians for Christians. Most scholars believe that the only words actually spoken by Jesus and recorded in the Gospels are the ones that still appear today in Aramaic. “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani” said by Jesus at his crucifixion is one that comes to mind immediately. Mary’s call of “Raboni” when confronted by the risen Jesus at his tomb is another example of such preservation. So, the New Testament does not contain the exact words of Jesus as he spoke them, unlike the words of God recorded more directly in the Qu’ran. Rather, the New Testament contains the story of Jesus and how he and his teachings fit into the history of the region, a history that was already very old and rich. Jesus’ teachings (ideas, concepts and goals instead of his exact words) were preserved by oral tradition for many years until they were written down by many people in many forms. The Synoptic Gospels were the first of several attempts to consolidate, codify and organize Jesus’ teachings and reject offshoots such as Arianism and Gnosticism. The final organisation occurred in 325 at the Council of Nicaea, where documents that had been circulated among churches were assembled into the New Testament. As for the various occurrences where Jesus ‘says’ he’s going to return, they don’t mean much to me, either. I do not follow or see the validity of apocalyptic or Millennarian theology. I grew up with Anglican theology, a theology that reflects the lives of the Apostles after the Resurrection. In those years, they built the Christian Church and lived their daily lives as Jesus had taught them to. They worshiped and lived together, trying to find the peace and fellowship that Jesus spoke of. They struggled with the legalism of Judaic faith that created injustice and worked toward fairness. They also struggled with their sins and human imperfections and confessed them as a way of limiting their destructive potential. The Second Coming is mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer in a few places, but it is just one small part of many others that define my faith. Vlad/Igor ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/86 "2009-09-04T18:10:07Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Really? How many religious wars had there been. I personally know of none. > > That phenomenon basically started with him, as far as I can tell You’re kidding, right? Religious conflict is _far_ older than merely two thousand years. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/87 "2009-09-04T18:29:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually He does not, He constantly challenges my beliefs and shapes them more and more to His own. If you look at my history in this board I believe you will see a evolution in kanicbird. This may be too personal a question, but i’d be interested in knowing what differences you feel there’ve been in your beliefs. Is there anything in particular you could point to show the change you’ve undergone, or any particular belief in which you’ve very significantly changed? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/88 "2009-09-04T18:32:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > You’re kidding, right? Religious conflict is _far_ older than merely two thousand years. He didn’t say conflict, he said _war_. And everyone knows there were no actual wars before the establishment of scotland. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/89 "2009-09-04T22:16:00Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > This may be too personal a question, but i’d be interested in knowing what differences you feel there’ve been in your beliefs. Is there anything in particular you could point to show the change you’ve undergone, or any particular belief in which you’ve very significantly changed? There are so many, here is a short list:one is that God is OK with us sinning, He knows we are helpless against the power of sin, and we can’t stop on our own. The power to overcome sin and addictions is not in us, but in Him. It is coming to Him saying Lord I can’t stop sinning, I need you to do that. Another one is for some people He will allow you to ‘sin’ in order to reach people who sin (if He does this He will give you His power to overcome it). Another one is the true freedom that Jesus offers to us. Another is that He does not want us under laws, rules, regulations, another is His willingness to look after us and over us as a loving father does his child. Another is that God’s ways lead to prosperity and beauty and a very high tech existence where we, as His children can play, instead of this comparatively low tech world where we must work. Another big one is the world view is directly opposite God’s view, I knew it was different, but I never assumes that everything the world has is so exactly 180 degrees opposite. and how much we can’t see without His help. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/90 "2009-09-04T22:55:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > … and still think it’s evil, nonsense or both. Ohhhh, the irony of you writing that line… Gold. Ha! I just saw this: [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Faith is an arrogant declaration that what you want to be true must be true. [/QUOTE] Platinum. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/91 "2009-09-04T22:55:15Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] > I’d kinda like to see an example of someone who commuted to work on faith alone. This morning my truck was out of diesel, the little reading was telling me I had 7 miles to empty. No Exxon in site, I had faith I would make the 25 mile commute. I did. [/QUOTE] Still cheating - you used faith _and a truck_ ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/92 "2009-09-04T22:55:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > He knows we are helpless against the power of sin, and we can’t stop on our own. The power to overcome sin and addictions is not in us, but in Him. It is coming to Him saying Lord I can’t stop sinning, I need you to do that. Another one is for some people **He will allow you to ‘sin’ in order to reach people who sin** (if He does this He will give you His power to overcome it). Here we have the classic fundamentalist mindset – despite all the rules against “sinning”, it’s actually OKAY to “sin” under certain conditions. What are those conditions? Apparently, whatever you want them to be. So there’s really no difference between being a christian or a heathen; you can do whatever you want, and not care about anyone else’s feelings, because GOD commands you to do so. Frankly, I have far more respect for sinners; at least they don’t presume that some lawful diety is silently approving their actions. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Another big one is the world view is directly opposite God’s view. That goes without saying, naturally. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/93 "2009-09-04T23:02:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It depends on the Inelligent Design proponent. > > In all cases, intelligent Design is in opposition ot the science behind the Theory of Natural Selection. > > Some ID supporters, (Michael Behe) accept that generally Natural Selection is the engine driving evolution, but insist that some evolutionary events just can’t be explained by random mutations and natural selection, so they have to invent a belief that some Designer steps in every once in a while and tweaks the process to keep it going. (Unfortunately for them, all their examples of events that could not possibly occur through natural selection keep getting disproven.) > Some Intelligent Design supporters, (Phillip Johnson, William Dembski), are put off from Natural Selection for philosophical reasons having nothing to do with science and make outlandish claims (both about Intelligent Design and Natural Selection), that have no grounding in science (or reality). > > There is a separate religious belief that a god might have set up the universe and let evolution do its thing in each biosphere, either knowing what would happen from His (or Her or their) vantage of immortality outside space and time or not caring about it, in any event. However, that belief is better known as Theistic Evolution, not Intelligent Design which is anti-scientific. Thanks for providing this info, so I didn’t have to for a change. And doing it better than I have. Though I think intelligent design (no caps), depending on the flavor, can sometimes be part of Theistic Evolution. I am glad to see that you’re putting your powers to use for Good for a change. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/94 "2009-09-04T23:10:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ohhhh, the irony of you writing that line… It wasn’t irony, it was a self description. > [@magellan01](#): > > Ha! I just saw this: > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > > Faith is an arrogant declaration that what you want to be true must be true. Platinum. [/QUOTE] And you too don’t bother to actually come up with an argument. Or in your case, even state a position. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/95 "2009-09-04T23:27:52Z")
When you have no rebuttal, pointing and laughing is always good and compelling argument. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/96 "2009-09-05T01:13:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually I believe the Kingdom of God, and for that matter the Garden of Eden is very technologically advanced and very beautiful. Providing for God’s Children all good things is the job of angels so we can play. In our fallen world the (fallen) angels make us work, while they play. So, the Garden of Eden is very technologically advanced and beautiful. Have we finally found a place connected to the Internet where the bulk of the bandwidth doesn’t go to downloading porn? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/97 "2009-09-05T01:22:43Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Here we have the classic fundamentalist mindset – despite all the rules against “sinning”, it’s actually OKAY to “sin” under certain conditions. What are those conditions? God offers 2 paths, one is a written code which IMHO include the 10 commandments, and the other laws plus all the laws we have in our land, The other one is the grace offered by Jesus. Once you are under grace you are no longer under any law, as any and all who have any claim against you have been paid by the ultimate sacrifice - the death of God’s Son. After you know you are totally under grace (not all saved people will reach this point IMHO), you follow your heart, which is the heart of Jesus. In order to reach people you may have to do things which violate the written code, such as Jesus healed on the sabbath, and for that matter ‘commandeered’ a donkey. In my experience it is more like don’t let the law get in the way of doing the work of Jesus as opposed to f’u I’m doing what I want. > [@](#): > > Apparently, whatever you want them to be. So there’s really no difference between being a christian or a heathen; you can do whatever you want, and not care about anyone else’s feelings, **because GOD commands you to do so** . You point out the difference, I don’t do what I want, but what God commands. That is the difference. Free will is yielded to God, so it is God using my body to reach who He wants. > [@](#): > > Frankly, I have far more respect for sinners; at least they don’t presume that some lawful diety is silently approving their actions. > That goes without saying, naturally. :rolleyes: The issue is not sin, but us admitting we are helpless sinners and need God and only God to save us. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/98 "2009-09-05T11:47:54Z")
> [@Vlad\_Igor](#): > > Jesus’ second coming didn’t happen in the lifetimes of the eyewitnesses of his ministry, nor to their grandchildren. The Synoptic Gospels were written between 60 and 90 years after Jesus died, adapted from an earlier document that I referred to above. Eyewitnesses were dying, and there was a push to preserve Jesus’ teachings for future generations before they were lost. The Gospel of John came even later, and was written as something of a manual by Christians for Christians. > > Most scholars believe that the only words actually spoken by Jesus and recorded in the Gospels are the ones that still appear today in Aramaic. “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani” said by Jesus at his crucifixion is one that comes to mind immediately. Mary’s call of “Raboni” when confronted by the risen Jesus at his tomb is another example of such preservation. So, the New Testament does not contain the exact words of Jesus as he spoke them, unlike the words of God recorded more directly in the Qu’ran. Rather, the New Testament contains the story of Jesus and how he and his teachings fit into the history of the region, a history that was already very old and rich. > > Jesus’ teachings (ideas, concepts and goals instead of his exact words) were preserved by oral tradition for many years until they were written down by many people in many forms. The Synoptic Gospels were the first of several attempts to consolidate, codify and organize Jesus’ teachings and reject offshoots such as Arianism and Gnosticism. The final organisation occurred in 325 at the Council of Nicaea, where documents that had been circulated among churches were assembled into the New Testament. > > As for the various occurrences where Jesus ‘says’ he’s going to return, they don’t mean much to me, either. I do not follow or see the validity of apocalyptic or Millennarian theology. I grew up with Anglican theology, a theology that reflects the lives of the Apostles after the Resurrection. In those years, they built the Christian Church and lived their daily lives as Jesus had taught them to. They worshiped and lived together, trying to find the peace and fellowship that Jesus spoke of. They struggled with the legalism of Judaic faith that created injustice and worked toward fairness. They also struggled with their sins and human imperfections and confessed them as a way of limiting their destructive potential. The Second Coming is mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer in a few places, but it is just one small part of many others that define my faith. > > Vlad/Igor We cannot know for sure what Jesus said or did, humans being as they are, like to make up stories. Just listen to today’s news or listen to talk radio. What one believes is a personal thing, it is just that belief, and each person should be allowed to believe as he or she wishes as long as it doesn’t harm another. We can prove that all religions were started and accepted by humans. Humans decided what they would call holy. Hence the wars etc. over a piece of land or a belief system. The early Spanish wiped out a lot of people because they called them heretics,destroyed a lot of writings, just as the church fathers did in the 300’s They picked and chose what they wanted to be called the words of God. Depriving anyone of thinking differently and how much they inserted to back up their claims is disputable, ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/99 "2009-09-05T11:55:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God offers 2 paths, one is a written code which IMHO include the 10 commandments, and the other laws plus all the laws we have in our land, The other one is the grace offered by Jesus. Once you are under grace you are no longer under any law, as any and all who have any claim against you have been paid by the ultimate sacrifice - the death of God’s Son. > > After you know you are totally under grace (not all saved people will reach this point IMHO), you follow your heart, which is the heart of Jesus. In order to reach people you may have to do things which violate the written code, such as Jesus healed on the sabbath, and for that matter ‘commandeered’ a donkey. > > In my experience it is more like don’t let the law get in the way of doing the work of Jesus as opposed to f’u I’m doing what I want. > > . > > You point out the difference, I don’t do what I want, but what God commands. That is the difference. Free will is yielded to God, so it is God using my body to reach who He wants. > > The issue is not sin, but us admitting we are helpless sinners and need God and only God to save us. I guess that is why God chose adulters and murderers to lead His people. Moses was a murderer, David ,both a murderer and an adulterer (to name 2). The way you describe your God he is like a father who has handicapped children and punishes the blind for not seeing the sun, the Paralized for not walking, the deaf for not hearing, the mentally ill for not understanding, etc. I feel sorry for you, with such a God who lacks compassion and blames and punishes his children for his mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613/100 "2009-09-05T13:06:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There are so many, here is a short list:one is that God is OK with us sinning, He knows we are helpless against the power of sin, and we can’t stop on our own. The power to overcome sin and addictions is not in us, but in Him. It is coming to Him saying Lord I can’t stop sinning, I need you to do that. Another one is for some people He will allow you to ‘sin’ in order to reach people who sin (if He does this He will give you His power to overcome it). Another one is the true freedom that Jesus offers to us. Another is that He does not want us under laws, rules, regulations, another is His willingness to look after us and over us as a loving father does his child. Another is that God’s ways lead to prosperity and beauty and a very high tech existence where we, as His children can play, instead of this comparatively low tech world where we must work. > > Another big one is the world view is directly opposite God’s view, I knew it was different, but I never assumes that everything the world has is so exactly 180 degrees opposite. and how much we can’t see without His help. Thanks a lot for the answer, **kanicbird**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mindset-of-creationists/508613.md?page=6)