# The morality of not limiting human contact as much as possible **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 29, 2021, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823 "2021-12-29T01:08:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/21 "2022-01-03T07:27:20Z")
OK, this is going to be a bit dramatic, but here goes. You realize it’s not possible for you to reduce your risk of catching and spreading the virus to zero, right? The only way you can guarantee you won’t be a vector, and therefore guarantee you won’t kill someone, is to off yourself. You recognize that you don’t have a moral obligation to do that, right? Well, isolating yourself completely is almost certain to take years off your life. Do some Googling on the effects of loneliness. Why aren’t you entitled to those years as much as the people you’re worried about protecting? Game night itself may be trivial, but human connections aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/22 "2022-01-03T14:52:23Z")
ISTM that the deal is you are accepting the premise of the infinitesimal triviality of avoiding any unnecessary contact vs. the enormity of possible consequences as axiomatic. You look at what is it you give up vs. what you risk and it just smacks you in the face how much of a no-brainer the choice is! But the thing is: that is YOUR relative value assessment. It’s not what someone else badgered you about, that IS and has been all along your value base. Congratulations, proceed to do what you consider best. Now, have I reduced my activities and cancelled all my fun plans for the last two weeks of the year and through January? Yes. Because the omicron spike is a real concern. Was I engaging in low key socializing and close-family events _before_ the spike? Yes, because we were taking precautions. Not like I was attending raves or banquets either and there was always one or more of mask/vaccine/test requirements. All of it a calculation of relative risk. I will only judge as “immoral” the deniers, antivaxers, maskholes, and quackery profiteers. Not someone who takes precautions while doing some things differently than I would. Yeah, game night probably needs to get postponed a few weeks because there’s always the chance of some in-law who one of you doesn’t realize is exposed who screws up the precautions. But that just makes the others involved _wise_, not morally better. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/23 "2022-01-03T16:04:18Z")
Honestly, you are not going to prevent people from getting Covid at this point. It is endemic. You can flatten a spike a bit and figure out whether your measures are worth it. I’m dubious as to whether omicron can be meaningfully flattened at this point, but whatever. It’s still going to be out there in 2 weeks, a month, two months, whenever you decide to open up again. People need to get vaccinated, but there is no miracle avoidance of Covid. It is here to stay. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/24 "2022-01-03T16:38:51Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Am I a bad person for being in the presence of multiple strangers indoors in public, including a good deal of maskholes? I’m going to push against the tide a little and say yes, you are a (_very_ slightly) bad person for tolerating maskholes rather than publicly, loudly, saying “I’m not going because these nutbars are going to be there.” They need to be resisted, and it’s a (again, _very_ slight) moral negative to not do so. > [@Leaper](#): > > By choosing to accompany my family on this thing, am I morally responsible for anyone who gets infected as a result? In as much as you’re giving social cover an approval to antivaxxers, yes, you are slightly responsible. Nowhere near as much as the actual maskholes, but a teeny amount of responsibility attaches to you too. Morally, probably about the same amount as “one incident of consciously littering”, not “kicking a puppy”-level. > [@Leaper](#): > > If I come down with it, do I deserve it for having gone out? “Deserve” is a tricky area, but will it be your own fault? Yes. > [@Leaper](#): > > should I just suck it up and do without for however long it takes? When the thing you’re doing without is the company of crazy ~~Typhoid~~ Covid Marys, are you really losing anything? > [@Leaper](#): > > I can afford to get groceries delivered or do curbside pickup, but I don’t due to costs and my shopping habits. Is _that_ worthy of condemnation? Am I not taking the virus seriously enough? If you take all due precautions when going shopping in person, I don’t see it as making a difference. If you maintain your distance, sanitize, and mask up, I don’t see the issue. > [@Leaper](#): > > what about people who question any sort of reasonable restriction for any reason besides their own lives? Are they a factor in allowing this virus to run rampant by not shutting up and just obeying for the sake of saving lives? Yes, especially when that “reasonable restriction” revolves around masking, social distancing and getting jabbed. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2022, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/25 "2022-01-04T00:59:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > When the thing you’re doing without is the company of crazy ~~Typhoid~~ Covid Marys, are you really losing anything? Good point. I missed that you were staying home from a game night with mask holes. I thought you were advocating staying home completely. Yeah, don’t spend time with mask holes. Not worth it on many levels. I was playing bridge with some vaccinated friends. We were on line, then we got vaccinated and started playing in person again, then Delta came and we went back online. Then we all got boosted, and briefly played in person with masks. We didn’t meet over the holidays, but i think we’ll be back online. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2022, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/26 "2022-01-04T02:02:50Z")
No, sorry, my game night has responsibly vaccinated, if unmasked, people, with a max of six. It’s this other thing I went to last week that was in public. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2022, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/27 "2022-01-04T07:47:42Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > No, sorry, my game night has responsibly vaccinated, if unmasked, people, with a max of six. Oh, no, no moral blame for attending that. What I said still applies for the public event, though. If I were in the States, with that kind of public, I wouldn’t attend public events either, and I wouldn’t feel any guilt or reluctance to state why. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/28 "2022-07-03T06:35:31Z")
Bumping to say that while I do appreciate the discussion that’s come up already, I’m still struggling with this, especially as the variants get more and more contagious, and the idea of long Covid and various forms of internal damage to hearts and brains and such get discovered over and over. Y’all have made very good points, but a lot of this is emotional, and basically, my problem is this: with Covid as ubiquitous and contagious as it is now, how am I any different from anti-vaxxers? None of us are making the serious sacrifices necessary to alleviate this thing. I’m planning on going to the other coast in September. Some part of me still thinks, _I shouldn’t travel. If I get Covid, and if I get permanent damage, my suffering will be entirely my own fault and doing and any consequences are just desserts for being stupid and reckless, just like anti-vaxxers, and even more so if I infect someone else. Why aren’t you canceling? Why aren’t you demanding relatives coming to visit locally stay home? Why are you still hoping to go overseas in December? You’re not making any sense!_ Same with work (_why haven’t I quit in favor of a 100% WFH job; in lieu of that, why am I not bombarding management with demands to let/make everyone WFH permanently_) and going to restaurants. I guess I still can’t shake the idea that the _only_ moral personal and societal course is to shut down as much as possible until this thing is under control, for both immediate and long-term quality of life. Who cares about “being social” and “loneliness”? You can fix both easily. You can’t fix dead. You can’t fix heart damage. Pleasure in life is temporary. Dead is forever. Brain damage is forever. People have said, in discussing this issue, that quality of life is important, and it is, but that’s _exactly_ what the anti-vaxxers say, and Covid is still rampant. So I think in the end, my problem is that I’m trying to find a way to not condemn everyone who does not limit human contact to the utmost degree possible (and who resist to any extent any attempt to do otherwise), including and especially myself, as bad, selfish people who deserve long Covid and everything that comes with it. I know consciously that almost can’t be the case (unless one is a pretty severe misanthrope), but it’s hard to penetrate that impulse. This is my attempt to explain it, to talk it through, to find reasons and reason behind it. Thanks in advance for letting me stew! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/29 "2022-07-03T18:29:57Z")
We are past the point of “waiting until this is over”. It won’t ever be “over”, and we need to make long term plans about how to live our lives on a more dangerous world. At the very beginning, when there were no vaccines and most of us were immunologically naive, covid was FAR more dangerous than it is today, and there was a compelling reason to stay home, and good reasons to believe that the situation would improve. (Which have come to pass, the situation is vastly better today.) Then, when the first vaccines came out, and miraculously provided sterilizing immunity to most people, there was a string moral imperative to get vaccinated, and to pressure anyone you had power over to get vaccinated. But that’s no longer true. While vaccines still reduce the risk you will spread covid, they aren’t as effective as wearing a mask (source control works very well) or rapid testing before you go out. And they aren’t (on average) more effective than having had covid, and at this point, most of the unvaccinated have had covid, often multiple times. And we now have an adequate supply of good quality masks. Yes, it’s safer if everyone masks. But if i wear a properly-fitted N95 mask, my risk of catching something from the guy next to me is very low. It’s still smart to get vaccinated, because it enormously reduces your own risk. But the argument to force others to get vaccinated is far weaker. Today, you get vaccinated for you and your loved ones, not for society at large. It’s still smart to wear a mask if you need to be in closer contact with people who might be infected, like random other customers at the drug store. But the argument to force others to wear masks is also far weaker. And it’s not healthy for humans to huddle home alone all the time. Different people need different amounts of social interaction, but we all need some, and some of us need lots to be healthy. Social interaction doesn’t just make you happier, it protects your cognitive functioning and your immune system. So people will be going out, traveling, meeting, throwing parties. And that’s okay. It might not be safe for you or me to attend those events, but it’s not morally wrong for others to do so. It for you to do so, knowing the risks. Just like it’s not morally wrong to go scuba diving or ride horses. I think at this point the key thing is communicating the risks of events, so potential participants can make informed decisions about partaking. Will it be outdoors or indoors? How crowded? Will people test? Will others mask? Will some of the activities require people to remove masks (like eating)? And yes, some people will catch covid. Some will develop cancer. Bad stuff happens. The world is a little riskier than a few years ago. But not so much more risky that it makes sense for us all to huddle alone at home all the time, forever. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/30 "2022-07-03T21:27:43Z")
You’re absolutely right that “until this is over” was, at the very least, poorly worded. What about “until long Covid is understood and children and the immunocompromised are properly accommodated”? I think my deal is that I see all this criticism about schools and businesses dropping precautions and how terrible it is that they’re prioritizing the economy over human lives. Then I look at the anti-vaxxers and what they say to justify their behavior. Then I look at myself and compare, and I’m a bit disturbed at the parallels I find. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/31 "2022-07-03T22:54:11Z")
Why should there not be parallels or convergences? It’d not as if them and us are from different planets. “We can’t just stay under emergency rules until 99% of us are 99% satisfied, and a way should be found to resume social interactions”, for instance, is not an unreasonable position to share. It’s what we _do_ about it that’s a problem. ISTM, @Leaper , you were flagellating yourself too much at what you saw as a failure on _your_ part to meet the kind of standard you set for yourself. I must assume out of basic respect you were _not expecting_ that it would just come _easy_ to always do the “right” thing. But equally I must assume you were not thinking of martyrdom. _It is not a moral failure to want the hardship to end_. Let go of beating yourself over it and just do for yourself and others the best you know how and can. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/32 "2022-07-04T00:03:39Z")
You made great points, and it’s helped me figure out the origins of some of my thoughts: If the statement “the pandemic still isn’t over” is true, and I think it is, my visceral conclusion is that the safe and responsible thing to do now _must_ be the same as the safe and responsible thing to do in 2020. Yeah, there are vaccines now, but the virulence and immune escape of current variants cancels that out. “Pandemic fatigue by the general population is making the pandemic worse for everyone” is another statement I agree with. I have pandemic fatigue. It’s affected some of my decisions to not take 2020 precautions. Therefore, I am personally contributing to making the pandemic worse for everyone. You know how retail workers complain that the reason they’re forced to work during holidays is because there’s customer demand during the holidays, and so those customers who sympathize with the retail workers while they’re shopping on that holiday are stupid and selfish, because they’re the whole reason those workers are there to begin with? I see parallels there too. Long Covid and the damage it can cause is so horrible that it feels wrong and reckless to _not_ do everything I possibly can and make any sacrifice I must to avoid it. And, of course, what I said before, about if it’s wrong for governments and antivaxxers to do X for Y reasons, it’s equally wrong for me personally to do X for Y reasons. Putting this stuff into words does help me, because it allows me to more critically examine it, as opposed to only having vague feelings of being judged by others. I’ve got a lot of thinking to do. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/33 "2022-07-04T00:13:00Z")
And of course bear with the knowledge that each other individual should calculate _their_ risk-benefit equation. Which may not give the same result as yours. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/34 "2022-07-04T00:17:29Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > my problem is this: with Covid as ubiquitous and contagious as it is now, how am I any different from anti-vaxxers? I assume you’re vaccinated. That, by itself, makes you vastly different from anti-vaxxers, by definition. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/35 "2022-07-04T00:34:37Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > And of course bear with the knowledge that each other individual should calculate _their_ risk-benefit equation. Which may not give the same result as yours. Absolutely, which is why I think my first realization above was so important; it explains why I tend to automatically empathize with and understand those who take _more_ precautions than normal, but don’t react quite the same way with _fewer_. > [@suranyi](#): > > I assume you’re vaccinated. That, by itself, makes you vastly different from anti-vaxxers, by definition. I am. But every time I read about immune escape and virulence and “vaccine ability to prevent spread is limited,” it just makes me wonder if that “advantage” is “cancelled out.” But then I recognize that it’s close to an antivaxxer talking point, so that helps, because they can’t be right about anything. (Thus why I get uncomfortable when I think anything remotely close to what they do.) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/36 "2022-07-04T04:53:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > because they can’t be right about anything (Thus why I get uncomfortable when I think anything remotely close to what they do Which is something to be careful about… you may not want to dismiss something _just_ because ‘it sounds like what “they” would say’, either. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2022, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/37 "2022-07-05T21:48:55Z")
I think some of what might be going on for you is the newness of the info you have and uncertainty about the info you don’t re: long COVID etc. There are lots of terrible things out there, some of which you’re contributing to, not doing all you can to stop, or at least increasing the risk of, with your actions (think climate change, car accidents, starvation/disease/human rights abuses the world over, etc.) Are you doing absolutely everything you can to save the world from every threat that is or would be at least as bad as long COVID? I bet you’re not, and I bet you’re not nearly as stressed out about it. Try to picture yourself having gotten used to this the way you’ve gotten used to everything else, and think about what’s sustainable in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/38 "2022-07-13T14:07:59Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > If the statement “the pandemic still isn’t over” is true, and I think it is, my visceral conclusion is that the safe and responsible thing to do now _must_ be the same as the safe and responsible thing to do in 2020. Yeah, there are vaccines now, but the virulence and immune escape of current variants cancels that out. The vaccines aren’t as effective against the new variants, but the scientific evidence I’ve read indicates that they do still provide protection against hospitalization and death. Also, although people may not realize it because of the brouhaha over ivermectin and hydrowhatever, there are now effective treatments for COVID-19. So we are not where we were in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/39 "2022-07-14T09:22:38Z")
Also there is very much less of a sense of people worrying about catching COVID and not knowing if they are going to die or not. My Dad, brother and his family, and about half a dozen other people I know (none from each other as they are all geographically separated) caught COVID in the past few months and symptoms ranged from “bad case of the flu” to “I had a slight cough and tested positive”. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823/40 "2022-08-04T14:49:30Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > My Dad, brother and his family, and about half a dozen other people I know (none from each other as they are all geographically separated) caught COVID in the past few months and symptoms ranged from “bad case of the flu” to “I had a slight cough and tested positive”. Same with us. Plus, there was a strong correlation between severity of symptoms and how recent our boosters were (if any). My brother had a fever and aches for a few days. He was never boosted. My daughter had a slight fever for one night. She was boosted back in December. I had very minor cold symptoms and had my second booster beginning of May. My husband had no symptoms and got his second booster three weeks before infected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-morality-of-not-limiting-human-contact-as-much-as-possible/956823.md?page=1)